Yeah, Hi... I've read a lot of posts on the matter of MFX. The "standard error (?)" that one can't make the patches sound the same in performance mode as in patch mode. I work only in Cakewalk and thus I am used to just choose my patches and make the music. I've had a XV-88, XP-80, XP-10 (and some other different models from different brands, KORG etc). On the XV-88 I chose the patches to use and it sounded as fine in performance mode as in patchmode (in my ears). Now when I've got this Fantom XR module instead of the XV-88 my old tunes are no longer funny to listen to. All electricalguitars, fat organs and nice reverbs sound like crap. I am NOT interested in the time consuming business of programming the MFX-thingy's (?) for every song I've done in Cakewalk. I just want to open the good ol' Cakewalk, choose one on my tunes and play it. *growing more and more depressed*. Why did I buy this module ? ARGH ! The salesman told me it was "FAR BETTER THEN THE XV-88"... Yeah, sure. If I get 16 Fantom XR I MIGHT be able to make things sound good. I orchestrate up to 16 patches at the same time and want to replay them at the same time with the original patch "sound". "Let's see. Do I want to have the electrical guitar to sound good or do I want to have reverb on the drums ? Or do I want the organ to sound good ?". I DON'T LIKE THIS COMPROMISING ! My new Korg Triton Le has the EXACT same "problem". I've now raised my (already big) loan and ordered a used XV-3080 now to use this as a primary MIDI-module in my "studio". I'm NOT a live musician but an amateur who want's to have my own little orchestra on my desktop. It used to be like that before, in the "old days" ! *sighing* Is the only chance for me to sample the (indeed very nice, in patch mode) guitars and such and then make my songs in MODPlug-Tracker instead =( =( =( ?????? Am I the only one making orchestral music in Cakewalk with a single Fantom XR module ??? If not, how have YOU solved this problem ? Multiple modules (wich I can't afford) or ... ??? I would REALLY appreciate some tips for Cakewalk so I won't have to use this module as a "single instrument unit" when playing around in Cakewalk.
Best regards
No FX. I'll better kill myself
Re: No FX. I'll better kill myself
Operator, my posts may have been ones you just read as I have gone thru the same "trauma" as you lately in the realization of the limitations for multi-channel playback.
I also do music exclusively "in studio" using Sonar 3 Producer and my newly purchased XR and spent money I really didn't have.
Sorry to tell you but there is no magic solution. What I have done is setup my XR Performance (User 1 Seq. Template) to assign channel 1 to MFX1 .. channel 2 to MFX2 and channel 3 to MFX3. I have left Chorus and Reverb assigned to Performance and may be shared across all channels although not for specific patch settings. I will simply use this setting for every Sonar project.
This is a major pain to not be able to freely compose and hear all sounds as expected while creating/composing. It also effects keyboard expression since some patches require the MFX for modulation (like organ). However I can at least hear 3 channels close to at least to the expected sound and with modulation applied. (So you may only need to buy 4 more XRs ... not 15
I do however ultimately transform all midi tracks to audio tracks, which allows you to greatly enhance sound quality and use audio fx plugins within Sonar. This is where I would apply reverb and chorus as well as any eq or compression or sometimes delay.
Obviously what we really wanted and expected is a full 16 channel playback sampler with FX for each channel. Something I will pay a lot more attention on my next purchase which I don't expect will be for many years.
David
I also do music exclusively "in studio" using Sonar 3 Producer and my newly purchased XR and spent money I really didn't have.
Sorry to tell you but there is no magic solution. What I have done is setup my XR Performance (User 1 Seq. Template) to assign channel 1 to MFX1 .. channel 2 to MFX2 and channel 3 to MFX3. I have left Chorus and Reverb assigned to Performance and may be shared across all channels although not for specific patch settings. I will simply use this setting for every Sonar project.
This is a major pain to not be able to freely compose and hear all sounds as expected while creating/composing. It also effects keyboard expression since some patches require the MFX for modulation (like organ). However I can at least hear 3 channels close to at least to the expected sound and with modulation applied. (So you may only need to buy 4 more XRs ... not 15
I do however ultimately transform all midi tracks to audio tracks, which allows you to greatly enhance sound quality and use audio fx plugins within Sonar. This is where I would apply reverb and chorus as well as any eq or compression or sometimes delay.
Obviously what we really wanted and expected is a full 16 channel playback sampler with FX for each channel. Something I will pay a lot more attention on my next purchase which I don't expect will be for many years.
David
At last ! =)
Thank you David. At last I heard from someone knowing exactly what I'm talking about. It's good to know that one is not alone feeling this way. I'll try your settings with the MFX:es. I bet that if I use my Fantom XR for some four patches and the XV-3080 for the rest I'll survive, hopefully ;o) ! Not even my old GM1-songs have the correct reverb/chorus anylonger, too sad. I'll also try your tip about recording the tracks as audio with the "real patch" and then inserting them into the projects "bit by bit" as the projects grow. Very good idea, it should work when then soundcard (Audigy 2, bulk) has support for full duplex and thus should be able to both play and record (in for example Wavelab) at the same time. It's still a Roland, the Korg Triton Le's only job from now on will be to serve as a master MIDI keyboard.
Sorry for my poor english, I'm from Sweden.
And thanks again
Best Regards
Henrik
Sorry for my poor english, I'm from Sweden.
And thanks again
Best Regards
Henrik
Re: No FX. I'll better kill myself
hi operator, i 'm selling my recently purchased fantomx6 for the same reason, not enough effects for my needs in multitimbral mode.
i ended up with a motif es, which has 2 insert effects on 8 of the 16 multitimbral tracks, along with 2 send effects and a mastering effect and eq, so it's easier to maintain the sound of a preset in multitimbral mode.
cheers, al.
i ended up with a motif es, which has 2 insert effects on 8 of the 16 multitimbral tracks, along with 2 send effects and a mastering effect and eq, so it's easier to maintain the sound of a preset in multitimbral mode.
cheers, al.
Great name for a thread subject!
Darkness surrounds...
Anyway, I'm sure this is more than obvious - but can you tell us about your adventures in resampling or even pushing the skip back sampler button and working that way?
Roland, Korg (and maybe even Yamaha to some extent) all think that the magical answer is to resample everything for savings in effects and polyphony. This works great for loop oriented music; but here we have a different situation. The process of resampling individual orchestral instruments or passages must be painstaking.
I encourage you to stay with it as there is no perfect response or answer to your dilemma. When you did resample your sounds what was the outcome? Did this really limit you as to what you were trying to accomplsh? Maybe you could even upload some work so that we could hear your situation for ourselves.
I am curious myself about this as well. The effects compromise on a synthesizer workstation is one of the largest obstacles for a manufacturer to overcome. It is one thing to resample a drum loop - it is a completely different issue when your dealing with "real" strings, brass, etc.
Good luck and let us know what you ultimately accomplish.
Best,
Andrew
Anyway, I'm sure this is more than obvious - but can you tell us about your adventures in resampling or even pushing the skip back sampler button and working that way?
Roland, Korg (and maybe even Yamaha to some extent) all think that the magical answer is to resample everything for savings in effects and polyphony. This works great for loop oriented music; but here we have a different situation. The process of resampling individual orchestral instruments or passages must be painstaking.
I encourage you to stay with it as there is no perfect response or answer to your dilemma. When you did resample your sounds what was the outcome? Did this really limit you as to what you were trying to accomplsh? Maybe you could even upload some work so that we could hear your situation for ourselves.
I am curious myself about this as well. The effects compromise on a synthesizer workstation is one of the largest obstacles for a manufacturer to overcome. It is one thing to resample a drum loop - it is a completely different issue when your dealing with "real" strings, brass, etc.
Good luck and let us know what you ultimately accomplish.
Best,
Andrew
Re: No FX. I'll better kill myself
Hi Al !
Sounds like a fair amount of fx on that Motif ES. Maybe
this is what I need. It seemed pretty cool, that ES machine.
They compared it to Korg and Fantom and it seemed like it
had the same possabilities and range of sounds as any of
their new workstations.
Good Luck, Al ! I hope you find the Motif better. =)
Sounds like a fair amount of fx on that Motif ES. Maybe
this is what I need. It seemed pretty cool, that ES machine.
They compared it to Korg and Fantom and it seemed like it
had the same possabilities and range of sounds as any of
their new workstations.
Good Luck, Al ! I hope you find the Motif better. =)
Re: No FX. I'll better kill myself
Hello there Andrew !
First, thank's =) !!
Yeah, how shall I begin ? Well, my experiences in resampling is restricted to what I've done within Wavelab (and of course in the Amiga-days along with OctaMED and PT). I've not had the time to play around with this, for me, rather new technique. The only thing I've used "resampling" for has been to sample single chords and such for FX in MODPlug-Tracker (and occasionally for Cakewalk). I begun trying out this technique for whole tracks/parts three days ago.
I don't really like it 'cause my imagination is somewhat limited and I can't really imagine exactly how those patches will fit together when all is resampled and inserted into Cakewalk in separate audio tracks. I like when I can listen to my tunes over and over again and in the meantime selecting the BEST sounds for the different parts. Maybe I'm a little demanding for being just an "happy amateur". I guess that it's DOABLE to sample all of my tracks (~10 parts ? ~25 MB each) and then redo those who are not playing "nicely" with the others.
The outcome when I tried to "resample" my tracks was a whole lot of huge tracks no longer "editable" in Cakewalk's notation window. Really annoying. But I guess that the pro's doesn't need to change what they've already done. I like to insert for example slidings, moving some little note and so on afterwards, like polishing away those last few scratches on the car. That will mean that I would have to go back to the "editable" version, change those small deatils, sample this track again, and then implementing it in the audio version again. If you know what I mean. It will fore sure eat my hard drives space really fast. Guess this is the future ? No more small MIDI-files and Cakewalk WRK files, just huge bundle files with both MIDI data and audio, like extreme ProTracker-modules on 200 MB each.
I'll play around with this technique a little more and upload some "demos" when I got something ready.
My dream is to have a Fantom with a combination of the patch and perfomance mode, so it ALWAYS sounds the same.
Thank you ! =)
First, thank's =) !!
Yeah, how shall I begin ? Well, my experiences in resampling is restricted to what I've done within Wavelab (and of course in the Amiga-days along with OctaMED and PT). I've not had the time to play around with this, for me, rather new technique. The only thing I've used "resampling" for has been to sample single chords and such for FX in MODPlug-Tracker (and occasionally for Cakewalk). I begun trying out this technique for whole tracks/parts three days ago.
I don't really like it 'cause my imagination is somewhat limited and I can't really imagine exactly how those patches will fit together when all is resampled and inserted into Cakewalk in separate audio tracks. I like when I can listen to my tunes over and over again and in the meantime selecting the BEST sounds for the different parts. Maybe I'm a little demanding for being just an "happy amateur". I guess that it's DOABLE to sample all of my tracks (~10 parts ? ~25 MB each) and then redo those who are not playing "nicely" with the others.
The outcome when I tried to "resample" my tracks was a whole lot of huge tracks no longer "editable" in Cakewalk's notation window. Really annoying. But I guess that the pro's doesn't need to change what they've already done. I like to insert for example slidings, moving some little note and so on afterwards, like polishing away those last few scratches on the car. That will mean that I would have to go back to the "editable" version, change those small deatils, sample this track again, and then implementing it in the audio version again. If you know what I mean. It will fore sure eat my hard drives space really fast. Guess this is the future ? No more small MIDI-files and Cakewalk WRK files, just huge bundle files with both MIDI data and audio, like extreme ProTracker-modules on 200 MB each.
I'll play around with this technique a little more and upload some "demos" when I got something ready.
My dream is to have a Fantom with a combination of the patch and perfomance mode, so it ALWAYS sounds the same.
Thank you ! =)
-
melnikov_project
- Posts: 31
- Joined: 09:31, 23 August 2005
- Location: israel
yo
man i dont know iether to laught or to cry..
ur talkin nonsence.
u talkin about amatures or pro's so there no difrence they all same pplz,
so no matter amtr or pro u have only 1 or 2 ways to make music using comuter softwares and hardware like fantom..
and the "way" is to hear a sound to work on it in solo like u do.. to fix all u need . to make it sound excacly as u wont it 2.
after it done export it to cakewalk my opinion if u use software cubase sx will be much better for this job ,and easyer to use when u get it...
so bro,.
there is no oter way makin such thinks..even when u work with vst's u listen to sound and export it it called workin offline. so u have the prest of u sound u can always come back and reedit it ,if it dont fits the song...
and u talkin about very very expansve vays of makin music the way u wont it to be....couse ur way really amature way..
so wonna get pro
start exportin sounds.
ur talkin nonsence.
u talkin about amatures or pro's so there no difrence they all same pplz,
so no matter amtr or pro u have only 1 or 2 ways to make music using comuter softwares and hardware like fantom..
and the "way" is to hear a sound to work on it in solo like u do.. to fix all u need . to make it sound excacly as u wont it 2.
after it done export it to cakewalk my opinion if u use software cubase sx will be much better for this job ,and easyer to use when u get it...
so bro,.
there is no oter way makin such thinks..even when u work with vst's u listen to sound and export it it called workin offline. so u have the prest of u sound u can always come back and reedit it ,if it dont fits the song...
and u talkin about very very expansve vays of makin music the way u wont it to be....couse ur way really amature way..
so wonna get pro
start exportin sounds.Hello Melnikov
Yes, I know I'm talking nonsence. That's because I'm so f**king frustrated over this, for me, new bahavior of the "effects unit" in this module, Fantom XR. I guess there is no problem to talk about.
And, how do you mean ? I guess my picture of the word amateur vs the word pro is this: An amateur, like me, doesn't earn any money from his work and is NOT interested in having the music as a living, just as a hobby. A pro is the man/woman who earns his/hers living from the music and probably are more willing to spend lot's of money in multiple modules, expensive software and time. My little projects are mereley to be called projects. "Today I want to play around with my Fantom. Oh, it turned out to be a song. Great, now when I've been working with this for five hours it's time to go to bed.". I WILL NOT be so serious as to sit in hours fiddling around with a lot of boring stuff as sampling, and bla and bla and blablabla. I like the putting-these-notes-on-"paper" work and NOT the I'm-so-f**king-good-at-all-these-fancy-software work.
For me, a synth module is just an orchestra that I want to sit on my desk and when I feed it with notes it shall play them as naturally and realistic it can. No matter if it is a guitar or an organ. And as with real orchestras I want it to play the whole f**king song multi-timbral. Maybe you're a pro but I can almost guarantee you that I will never be one.
My big problem is that I'm not at all interested in f**king around with huge samples and cutting and pasting in audio data. I left that life behind me when I transformed from a ProTracker-amateur to a OctaMED-(MIDI)-amateur. I thought: "Yeah, at last. I won't have to hazzle around with a lot of samples. Just to choose the ready-to-use sounds and put the bl**dy notes where I want them to be".
If however the tune turns out to be any good, I MIGHT sacrifice the time needed to record it track-by-track with the REAL sounds and not with the cheap-performance-flat-boring-sounds.
I'm not interested in becoming a "pro". This is not a competition for me. Just a godd**n hobby. Like being a hobby-carpenter, knitting, painting, writing poems, taking care of the garden or whatever else hobby you may come to think of. I used to love testing lot's of softwares, making my own sounds, program MIDI-messages,sample and so on. I don't have the patience for this anymore.
Thank's anyway. =)
And, how do you mean ? I guess my picture of the word amateur vs the word pro is this: An amateur, like me, doesn't earn any money from his work and is NOT interested in having the music as a living, just as a hobby. A pro is the man/woman who earns his/hers living from the music and probably are more willing to spend lot's of money in multiple modules, expensive software and time. My little projects are mereley to be called projects. "Today I want to play around with my Fantom. Oh, it turned out to be a song. Great, now when I've been working with this for five hours it's time to go to bed.". I WILL NOT be so serious as to sit in hours fiddling around with a lot of boring stuff as sampling, and bla and bla and blablabla. I like the putting-these-notes-on-"paper" work and NOT the I'm-so-f**king-good-at-all-these-fancy-software work.
For me, a synth module is just an orchestra that I want to sit on my desk and when I feed it with notes it shall play them as naturally and realistic it can. No matter if it is a guitar or an organ. And as with real orchestras I want it to play the whole f**king song multi-timbral. Maybe you're a pro but I can almost guarantee you that I will never be one.
My big problem is that I'm not at all interested in f**king around with huge samples and cutting and pasting in audio data. I left that life behind me when I transformed from a ProTracker-amateur to a OctaMED-(MIDI)-amateur. I thought: "Yeah, at last. I won't have to hazzle around with a lot of samples. Just to choose the ready-to-use sounds and put the bl**dy notes where I want them to be".
If however the tune turns out to be any good, I MIGHT sacrifice the time needed to record it track-by-track with the REAL sounds and not with the cheap-performance-flat-boring-sounds.
I'm not interested in becoming a "pro". This is not a competition for me. Just a godd**n hobby. Like being a hobby-carpenter, knitting, painting, writing poems, taking care of the garden or whatever else hobby you may come to think of. I used to love testing lot's of softwares, making my own sounds, program MIDI-messages,sample and so on. I don't have the patience for this anymore.
Thank's anyway. =)
Re: No FX. I'll better kill myself
S**nds like someb**y needs a Valium, or a dr**k, or some new expletives at least.
Seriously, though, we all recognize the limitations that are frustrating you ... and in particular, I agree with your assessment that "orchestral" music is not very amenable to resampling maneuvers, at least for us "amateurs."
If I may add a philosophical note, we all need to strike a balance in several areas of our music hobby -- for example, balancing the capabilities of our hardware with our budget (you can't have everything for $1k or so cost of a single XR module). Sometimes hardware limitations can also improve our musical skill -- the most effective music is often not excessively multitimbral or note-dense. Didn't Miles Davis say something along the lines of listening carefully for what notes you can leave out?
I know that doesn't answer your frustration ... I've felt a lot of frustration at times too, about equipment limitations or my level of playing ... but don't lose your patience, work around it like everybody else has to.
Cheers,
ncsteff
** ncsteff **
Fantom X8 and XR, and too many SRXs
Motif ES6, PLG150VL
Now if I only had the time ...
Seriously, though, we all recognize the limitations that are frustrating you ... and in particular, I agree with your assessment that "orchestral" music is not very amenable to resampling maneuvers, at least for us "amateurs."
If I may add a philosophical note, we all need to strike a balance in several areas of our music hobby -- for example, balancing the capabilities of our hardware with our budget (you can't have everything for $1k or so cost of a single XR module). Sometimes hardware limitations can also improve our musical skill -- the most effective music is often not excessively multitimbral or note-dense. Didn't Miles Davis say something along the lines of listening carefully for what notes you can leave out?
I know that doesn't answer your frustration ... I've felt a lot of frustration at times too, about equipment limitations or my level of playing ... but don't lose your patience, work around it like everybody else has to.
Cheers,
ncsteff
** ncsteff **
Fantom X8 and XR, and too many SRXs
Motif ES6, PLG150VL
Now if I only had the time ...
Re: No FX. I'll better kill myself
Hi Ncsteff ! =)
Ha ha ha ! ... Yeah, I maybe needed a Valium. I went to my fridge and got myself an icecold danish beer. I feel much better now. I know myself I'm silly complaining about this stuff and I do appreciate your sincere, and funny, answers. I'm just being irritative (don't know the word for easy provoced and frustrated). I really DO NOT mind the hard work and fiddling around with lot's of details. It was just my disappointment over this whole MFX-stuff in the Fantom XR that made me want to know for sure that there was no easy way to get those FX to work exactly the same way in performance mode as in patch mode. Like "Oh, you Fantom-beginner. Just press the hidden green button on the back of the Fantom and everything will work out for you." Hahaha... And answers I got. And know I'm feeling reassured and happier again. I'm going to start playing with the machine right now. Though, I WILL NOT start using software synths, Cubase SX, Reason or any other expensive (?) software before someone can proove to me "in real life" how the work and how they could make my life easier. ;o) !!
THANK'S EVERYONE !
Have a nice weekend
Ha ha ha ! ... Yeah, I maybe needed a Valium. I went to my fridge and got myself an icecold danish beer. I feel much better now. I know myself I'm silly complaining about this stuff and I do appreciate your sincere, and funny, answers. I'm just being irritative (don't know the word for easy provoced and frustrated). I really DO NOT mind the hard work and fiddling around with lot's of details. It was just my disappointment over this whole MFX-stuff in the Fantom XR that made me want to know for sure that there was no easy way to get those FX to work exactly the same way in performance mode as in patch mode. Like "Oh, you Fantom-beginner. Just press the hidden green button on the back of the Fantom and everything will work out for you." Hahaha... And answers I got. And know I'm feeling reassured and happier again. I'm going to start playing with the machine right now. Though, I WILL NOT start using software synths, Cubase SX, Reason or any other expensive (?) software before someone can proove to me "in real life" how the work and how they could make my life easier. ;o) !!
THANK'S EVERYONE !
Have a nice weekend
Re: No FX. I'll better kill myself
Usually we don't tell anybody about the secret button until they have thrashed around on the forum for months ...LOL
I wish I had an ice cold danish beer right now.
Have a great weekend!
** ncsteff **
Fantom X8 and XR, and too many SRXs
Motif ES6, PLG150VL
Now if I only had the time ...
I wish I had an ice cold danish beer right now.
Have a great weekend!
** ncsteff **
Fantom X8 and XR, and too many SRXs
Motif ES6, PLG150VL
Now if I only had the time ...
Re: No FX. I'll better kill myself
HAHAHAHAHAHA !!! :oD ! You're really funny. The first time today I've lauhged as much as this.
Take it easy and be well.. best regards
Take it easy and be well.. best regards
Re: No FX. I'll better kill myself
lol...
Don't get too frustrated about those MFX's.
btw, I can't see why the Motif has better MFX's section(?).
Anyway. If you mean that patches in performance don't sound like ones in patch mode, just go to the FAQ on this site and it will tell you how to "fix" it.
If you want enough effects for many tracks, try this:
On the Fantom only- Get the new Audio Expansion if you don't have it yet. It adds 8 audio tracks. Then prepare your tracks one by one, every time with all the effects you want on. When you're done, record a track and keep it on the Fantom's sequencer as audio. Do it for the rest of the tracks, and voila, you have all the effects you want, on all of the tracks, and still, its all in your Fantom. You can even add some effects to the tracks later on, even that the tracks are in audio.
Because its in the Fantom, its easy to get back to the MIDI tracks if you want, change the effects or notes, and then recording (resampling) and putting back in your song.
You can even keep one song with all of your MIDI and AUDIO tracks, by muting one type each time. Then you can switch between MIDI and AUDIO anytime, and change what you want in NO time:P
Its realy easy and you don't need to be frustrated about it.
It doesn't matter if those are loops or not. Just finish the track (in the Fantom or a cakewalk or whatever) and then resample it.
Piece of cake, and enjoy your Fantom, its a very nice toy!
Yours, Guy
A proud owner of a Fantom X8 !!
"Life is not a waffle" - G.a.b.a.b
Don't get too frustrated about those MFX's.
btw, I can't see why the Motif has better MFX's section(?).
Anyway. If you mean that patches in performance don't sound like ones in patch mode, just go to the FAQ on this site and it will tell you how to "fix" it.
If you want enough effects for many tracks, try this:
On the Fantom only- Get the new Audio Expansion if you don't have it yet. It adds 8 audio tracks. Then prepare your tracks one by one, every time with all the effects you want on. When you're done, record a track and keep it on the Fantom's sequencer as audio. Do it for the rest of the tracks, and voila, you have all the effects you want, on all of the tracks, and still, its all in your Fantom. You can even add some effects to the tracks later on, even that the tracks are in audio.
Because its in the Fantom, its easy to get back to the MIDI tracks if you want, change the effects or notes, and then recording (resampling) and putting back in your song.
You can even keep one song with all of your MIDI and AUDIO tracks, by muting one type each time. Then you can switch between MIDI and AUDIO anytime, and change what you want in NO time:P
Its realy easy and you don't need to be frustrated about it.
It doesn't matter if those are loops or not. Just finish the track (in the Fantom or a cakewalk or whatever) and then resample it.
Piece of cake, and enjoy your Fantom, its a very nice toy!
Yours, Guy
A proud owner of a Fantom X8 !!
"Life is not a waffle" - G.a.b.a.b
Thank's Kakaroto !
I'll try that too. Seems pretty straightforward. It's either this technique described by you that I will use or the one I've already tryed. Wich means the one where I replay the MIDI-data from within Cakewalk and at the same time record it into an AUDIO-track in Cakewalk. When I'm happy with the resulting track's "co-operation" with the other tracks I mute the MIDI-track and save the whole project as a Cakewalk-bundlefile with both MIDI and AUDIO data together. Piece of a Cake(walk) ;o) .. But I'll try your technique too. Thank's !!
=) Regards
=) Regards