What about America and the world?

[Spo Elman]

Just for something different.
How do you guys here see America in the field of world politics? (as your own or foreign country). What do you think about the country?
Are they too dominating or are they doing a good job in the world?

[lazeeboy]

Man, I just smoothed things over Well it's in the free zone so eat your heart out.

Regards,
Laurenz Nitert

[dansgold]

I don't see much value in this discussion, because it will (IMHO) serve only to inflame passions.

Even so, it seems unavoidable. So let me offer a possible middle ground context.

America does some things right, and some things wrong.

Because America is overwhelmingly the worlds dominant economic, cultural and military power ... whatever we do has large-scale repercussions on a global scale.

When we do right ... we do GREAT good. When we do wrong , we do it on an equally grand scale.

So, if the corrupt government of Rwanda murders tens of thousands of its own citizens, we certainly recognize that as being evil, it just doesn't affect the rest of the world all that much in a tangible sense.

On the other hand, a rumor that some American soldier might have flushed a page or 2 of the Koran down a commode ... INTERNATIONAL INCIDENT!

Similarly, the majority of the world's governments routinely engage in what can only be called barbaric forms of torture in dealing with purely political prisoners. In Pakistan (not even the worst case) there are thousands of prisoners given the death penalty for "crimes" as minor as suggesting that some official might be corrupt or that Islam might not be a perfect religion. These prisoners await the death penalty, and are denied regular food & water, and are often tortured daily for years on end. This is official policy, not an isolated incident or 2. Yet, I would imagine that this is the first time that many on this forum have even heard of such horrible conditions.

Some idiot stacks up some naked Iraqis at Abu Ghraib, and the world acts as though it's the greatest atrocity imaginable against mankind.

America is far from perfect, but some sense of perspective is required.

[lazeeboy]

I agree.

Regards,
Laurenz Nitert

[Spo Elman]

i agree too (with stopping the discussion, not with dansgold)..
well, i didn't had too much to do this evening
sometimes i tend to do these kind of things, little discussions
i won't bother you with it no more here! promise!

[lazeeboy]

You little catalyst, you Go play with your Fantom.

Laurenz Nitert

[Spo Elman]

I'm just too lazy to get the Fantom out of the car...
the world needs catalysts to go on

[pianodick]

It is amazing to me that anyone from Europe can even consider criticizing the United States for its albeit, barbaric, heavy-handedness, in its dealings with the world. First of all, North America had been doing quite well for thousands of years before it was invaded by Europe. Spain, England, France, Netherlands, Holland, Italy, Germany, and alot more than I am mentioning sat about COLONIZING the world long before the United States was even created. Nobody seems to want to remember that until just 60 or 70 years ago, the major powers of Europe took it upon themselves to physically control every country and province they could make landfall upon. Why is French a second language to the people of Viet Nam? Why is Spanish a second language to the people of Phillipines? Why is King's English a second language to most of the Middle East? Why is German a second language to most of South Africa? Colonization! These Colonizers now want to accuse United States of America of bullying the world. Poppycock!

I do not agree with President Bush's politics or his position on Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Israel, North Korea, China, or anywhere else. Bush is a money grubbing, war mongering, fool that truly has no clue as to the conditions of Americans let alone any other peoples anywhere in the world. Unfortunately, he was elected and as a citizen of the USA I am forced to tolerate his ignorance.

Do I believe in GOD? Yes! Do I believe that I should set out to kill anyone who doesn't believe? No! Do I think that some book whether it be Bible, Talmud, Koran, should be the final answer to the way I should behave with the rest of the world? Absolutely not! Faith comes from within!

Do I believe that all Dutchmen wear wooden shoes and laplander hats? No! Do I believe that all Irishmen are drunks? No! Do I believe that all Italians are great lovers? No! These are prejudices that are passed down from generation to generation. I would like to think that in this day and age with the communication resources available to most of the world now that we could get past all these stereotypes and biases and learn to tolerate each other's beliefs.

I believe many people from outside the USA look at news media and Hollywood hype and think, that is how all of america is. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I don't believe that anyone should judge anyone based on what they saw or heard on television. Truth does not sell newspapers, tv ads, or radio spots. Shock does!

We are at the doorway of an entirely new world. I hope that as we step through each of us will clean our feet of past and prepare our minds for a new understanding of one another.

Okay, I know. Shutting up now.

JMIO!!!

Signed, "Here I am surrounded by No Beer" Onslow(sp)

[dansgold]

It would help if people would:

1) Read a lot more, from many more sources (and more varied) than what might be comfortable. If you know Marx and Engles, then read some Rand and Hyek ... and visa versa.

2) Understand that we are not "all alike". Culture and language serve to determine the context of almost everyone's world view.

3) Learn to be reasonably skeptical about "what everyone knows". Be afraid when everyone you know agrees with you about everything.

4) Learn to think logically. Learn the difference between reason and rationalization. Learn the difference between an "argument", and "dialectic rhetoric". Refuse to be taken in by Michael Moorish "guilt by association" or "identity politics" of the left or right.

5) Learn the difference between something being "evil" and "wrong" ... and it being just something you don't like.

6) Shy away from "zero sum game" worldviews. Just becasue I buy a Fantom, doesn't mean I took it from someone else. Consider that if the "pie" isn't divided equally, there are more options than slicing it differently ... you can always bake another pie of your own.

[Phait]

Dissapointed.

graphic design, music & comics http://www.phait-accompli.com
graphic design blog jkohli.blogspot.com

[orwell_]

This is a flamethread waiting to happen.

"if the corrupt government of Rwanda murders tens of thousands of its own citizens"
Try hundereds of thousands dansgold. 800,000 actually, thats almost a million.
And during the whole incident the U.S. danced around the term 'genocide' refusing to use it because if they acknowledged that it was a genocide they would be acknowledging the fact that they didn't give a shit about Rwandans. Same goes for Darfur. They have no oil so they don't give a shit.

I find it hilarious how Bush went from 'WMD' to 'Attempted WMD' to 'Humanitarian War' and no one has raised an eyebrow. If i was a serviceman I'd be pissed.

Imagine the irony. The U.S. fighting a 'Humanitarian War' when it ignored the injustices of Rwanda and Darfur (where things were infinitecimally worse).

[thunderkyss]

It's a good thing the European Union jumped in and helped out in Rawanda, and Darfur, and are helping the poor people in China, and Pakistan, and Iraq, and India, and the philli..............wait a minute, they didn't do anything about any of those situations either. Did the EU at least use their influence to pressure Saddam to comply with the weapons search instituted by the U.N?? not the U.S., the U.N.

It's funny how a madman, and everybody knows he is a madman, can appear to be a victim of this. It's funny how American soldiers can have their heads chopped off(on video tape even) their bodies drug through the streets, and only Americans shed tears. It's funny how Al Queda terrorist can claim responsibility for bombing a train in Spain, then be traced back to Iraq, and people not understand the relationship between Terrorist groups, and Iraq, and Saddam.

We deserve to have our soldiers murdered, drug the streets, put on display, while the Arab world cheer in the streets......We flush pages of a book down a toilet, the Arab world is outraged, which leads to the death of 17 Americans. We should understand their outrage.................What kind of outrage should we expect if we killed 17 Arab soldiers?????

It's funny that terrorist are putting up more of a fight in Iraq, than the Iraqi military.......But we are worried about whether or not we found WMDs......

I couldn't care less what the worl view of America is. IMO, we were right. Every move we made after 911, we were right. If the world don't get it, that's ok. The problem with doing the right thing, is that many times, you do it alone. I'm glad, and proud that we have a prsident who was/is strong enough to do the right thing alone. I am a proud veteran or the US Navy, and I am proud of our brave soldiers who fight the good fight.

We were heroes when we were saving the white world of Europe....Monsters when we act to save the colored people of the world.


FantomS
AW4416
Now all I need is talent.
Anyone selling any talent??
member # 55
registered 21 May 2003

[EL Weezie]

Amen...Mr. Orwell!!! No Oil and they are just black folks...who cares, nobody is gonna miss 800,000 plus black folks!!! Yup, you guessed it, this service member is pissed. Sorry guys but thats how I see it.

EL

[Still Learning]

Just imagine where the world would be and how many other buildings would have been brought down all over the world (remember the plot in Kuala Lumpur, against the Petronas Towers, etc.), I know the majority of the intelligent people of the world realize that there are bad people out there and that there will probably always be bad people out there. I'm glad that the U.S. is trying their best to make this a better world. The truth is you can either fight the bad guys in their home court or in the victim countries home court, but you are going to have to fight them.

The argument about oil is getting old (ever since the 60's) and has been proven wrong so many times on so many fronts.. Simply look at the economic facts about global reserves.

I'm all for rooting out the bad guys ASAP. Let freedom reign, let the people decide, let democracy flourish, and let all Americans pause on Memorial Day to remember.

---------------------------
Learning to play like Sponge Bob !

[theologiae]

i would love to dive into this deeper but for now, just a few points.
let us not run off with the idea that just because some one is bad, all actions against them are justified. Saddam was and is a mad man that fallowed in the Stalin style of control, torture and murder. (i don't know of any other goverment that had rapests on the offical pay role) but that fact does not justify our (i help pay for those big guns with my taxes so it's a "we" issue) actions. Being just means more then just taking out the bad guys, and the thought that the Bush gang is some how doing the "right" thing is insane. Doing the right thing takes time, thought, hard work. I don't believe that a man that takes 2pm naps and is bed by 9pm is really mulling over the complex nature of the world.
this doesn't justify the acts of mad men that riot every time they get the feeling. The koran issue is old news, about a year or so since these stories were first heard and told. so why now, why this reaction?
to be honest, the U.S. role is the world is vast, far more reaching them can be summed up in a post. And the forces at work are by there very nature dishonest. on all sides.
to pick one and fill your self up with their "message" is silly.
Dansgold is right to say that the most importaint thing you can do is read and learn as much as you can and exist in a way that suspends reactionary judgment.
other wise you might just think that it's ok to kill in a war but not in a med clinic. That all life is sacred unless you're on death row.