Balanced output cables to amp in live setting

[Papakeys]

I may have stumbled across an issue that might solve a problem I thought I had.

I just read and want to confirm with any users of a Fantom X series synth, that if you use standard instrument cables from an "X" to your amp, you will loose 50% volume vs. using TRS or Balanced cables.

I recently purchased a new, Sumo 300 amp, and it has right and left input jacks for each channel. I have been using standard 1/4" intrument cables, (right and left) for both my X6 and my older JV 30. If I understand this to be correct, I have only gotten 50% of the volume out of either of these synths?

The TRS cables are relatively cheaply priced against standard cables, yet are supposedly quieter, and reduce noise output.

Has anyone used TRS cables, from Roland Synths? Did your volume significantly increase versus using standard cables?

I have thought I might have had a issue with my brand new amp, but this might totally explain why I have had to run 100% volumes on both keyboards, amp master volume and channel volumes.

Anybody's reply would be extremely appreciated!!!!!

PapaKeys

[rollinsmth]

Well, I already see some things that don't make sense with what you're finding. You should have no change of level at all in using TRS over TS 1/4' connections. By using the balanced cables with your amp (which WILL accept a balanced input on 1/4" connections BTW), all you are gaining is the ability to reject line noise. And balanced 1/4" cables should be appreciably more expensive than standard 1/4" inst. cables.

Also, your sumo 300 is putting out 300 watts! If you run both synths, the channel and the master at 50%, you should have enough volume to easily overpower that guitarist during the encore of the 3rd set. Going 100% should pretty much level the building. Something is wrong if you're not finding that.

[Papakeys]

1.3 Why and when should I use balanced cables?

The short answer is since the Fantoms main outputs are balanced, if you are plugging it into a mixer, amplifier or powered speakers with balance inputs, then you should use balanced cables - otherwise you will experience a 50% drop in volume. If your mixer/amp/powered speakers have unbalanced inputs then you are advised to use unbalanced cables. For a more detailed explanation of the difference between balanced and unbalanced cables, please check the dedicated "Balanced vs. Unbalanced" document on the main Fantomized site: http://fantomized.info/docs/tutorials/B ... LANCED.pdf

where the file states:
This is the whole reason for using balanced line cables in your studio. It will reject nearly all interference that may be caused by other audio and mains wiring in your studio, especially on long cable runs.

and

But the balanced cable carries the signal twice, with one copy being inverted.

The last line indicated a doubling of sound, which thus indicates 50% more volume.

PapaKeys

PS...
If the above is true, then I have only been recieving 50% of the line signal to the Amp, thus explaining to me in Theory why I have to run everything wide open to get a good presence of sound on a large stage running dual (right & left) instrument cables standard 1/4" vs the TRS cables or Balanced cables as they are sometimes referred to.

I appreciate you insight though...I really do

[FantAdam]

I plugged in some brand spaking new balanced cables at the soundcheck for my gig and immediately had to turn the faders down....
QED. (Quad Erat Demonstrandum: That which was to be proved, has been proved.)



It's not porn, it's art...

[pianodick]

Oh yeah, if you have been using standard 1/4" tip and sleeve and you want some power just plug two 1/4''Tip Ring and Sleeve to XLR male cables into the XLR inputs on your amp and you will certainly see an increase in umph and a need to decrease the gains on your amp. Extra Tip, if you will always run your fantom at max gain and use either a stereo volume pedal or the gains on your amp to limit volume you will always get a better coverage of all the different voices when you are playing more than one patch at a time.

Signed, "Nature is hard enough on us, let's not be hard on each other."

[dboulden]

Papakeys, you and the balanced-vs-unbalanced FAQ (which I wrote) are correct. To correctly use unbalanced equipment with balanced inputs, you "should" use a DI box (Direct Inject) such as any of these from the Studiopares catalogue: http://www.studiospares.com/search3.asp ... =&hidden1=

Dave

http://www.drstudio.demon.co.uk/
"Some musicians have a physical block, some have a mental block, while others have a wooden block". Unfortunately, I'm in the 1st category!

[rollinsmth]

Wow, this is a new one for me. Well, this actually might explain some things with MY system then. I'm using the FX with a Roland KC-500. Does anybody know if this amp has balanced inputs? I can't seem to find any info on the Roland website regarding it.

[Sami Cokar]

PD:

Would you recommend running the fantom (S) at max gain always? [ By 'gain' i'm assuming you mean 'volume' ]

What are the drawbacks?

( setup: FS, 1/4" TRS monitors )

Thanks

[Papakeys]

Thanks for all the responses.

I have a Alesis SUMO 300 for an amp. 300 watts of power, and last weekend tried using TRS cables on my X6 into the Sumo.

NO DIFFERENCE IN VOLUME !!!!

Now ... if I now correctly understand, I need to buy DIRECT BOXES in order to get the volume out of the X6?

Might anyone know if this is the same for my older JV30 also?

While I noticed a difinitive reduction in noise over standard TS instrument cables using the TRS cables, I am perplexed that now I need to go out and spend more money to get the true volume from this keyboard (X6).

I now feel it necessary to go to local music store that sells alesis amps, Hope they have a Sumo 300, bring my X6 down there, and verify that the problem is not in the BRAND NEW Amp, due to both the X6 and my JV30 are both doing same thing.

Old amp was only 145 watts, never had both the Amp Master and channel volumes wide open at any time or I would have made ears bleed!!! My old KB 300 from Peavey was a workhorse, specially with Black Widow Equipped 15" woofer.

And a reply about my Sumo 300 at 1/2 volume should be what my old KB300 was at max + 5 watts, and running it wide open on both master and channel, as well as X6 or JV volumes wide open, I should just about level the damn building if I hit any note on either rig, is a great analogy!!!

So like I said above, I'm perplexed that I do not have the volume headroom far above my old KB300 in the Sumo 300 at 2x the power in watts RMS.

Anyone with any suggestions for either testing the Amp or Keyboards would be very appreciated!!!!!

Thanks again in advance to any responses.

PapaKeys

PS... I am not trying to blow my band members off the stage, just want to have enough power when we get to ROCKIN' to be able to be heard equally with the other instruments...as far as volume on stage. 7 piece band, I am on the complete oppisite side of the stage of the Guitar player, and he likes to blow me away in stage volume and his amp is on 3, and mine is wide open MAX!!!

[pianodick]

Sami Cokar, When I am playing in my "studio"/music room, and have no other players to compete for volume with I run my s88 at full volume with trs to xlr and plug straight into my peavey xrd680 which is pushing 2 peavey xp2xt speakers, the two individual channels are set at less than 1 on the volume, and the main volume is less than 2 and I can rattle the walls with very little effort. If I am playing with other musicians the same room all I do is insert a stereo volume pedal between the s88 and the xrd680. If I am playing out live then I use the the seperate channels that the xrd680 calls pa1 and pa2 and seperate the stereo effect that way. A long time ago one of the roland boards I bought stated in the manual that in order to get the fullness of the sounds when playing so many different voices with different arrangements at the same time to always keep the volume slider at 100% and throttle your volume elsewhere. Even when I use only headphones I still keep my volume on the s88 at 100%. Another trick I learned was always use the last volume point in your equipment chain, as your final "throttle" thereby attaining more of the real sound and less of the "overdrive" of the amplifier. Turning the channel volume up really high and using the main volume at a really low setting is great if you are wanting a real overdriven sound. Just like the infamous V in a graphic equalizer. There are alot of sounds being left out of the picture when you do these sorts of things. There is a reason why all starting points on sound manipulation starts at zero and you are given the option to add or take away. Also as was stated in part of this thread, never ever ever end up on the same side of the band stand as the lead guitarist. The biggest drawback is watch getting to heavy handed with that left hand or you will rile the bass player.
Papakeys, as for direct boxes, I do not use any in my connection and again I say that the difference between standard 1/4" ts to 1/4" ts to my peavey amp and the 1/4"trs to xlr to my peavey is like night and day.

Signed, "Nature is hard enough on us, let's not be hard on each other."

[Sami Cokar]

interesting. thanks for the info PD

[dboulden]

Papakeys,

in your case you do not need DI boxes as your Sumo's inputs and the X6's outputs are both balanced (you only use a DI box when plugging an unbalanced line into a balanced input). What did seem strange to me is when reading the Sumo's manual, the maximum input level the Sumo can take on the balanced inputs is -21dB. This seems unusually low to me. Does this seem low to anyone else?

Dave

http://www.drstudio.demon.co.uk/
"Some musicians have a physical block, some have a mental block, while others have a wooden block". Unfortunately, I'm in the 1st category!