Do we need a new workstation or Firmware 2.0

[parker.bobby]

I have to say, 90% of my reasons for buying the G were about getting away from the daw. I saw in the g, a feature set that allows me to do most of what i do on a daily basis in my daw on a single device. The fact the the device is an actual instrument made the difference. There are many machines out there that help us record, mix, master, & create music. Though many of them are more multitrack recorder or beat machine than synth. I like the idea that companies have decided to add such features to keyboards of last couple generations.

All that said, the fantom is way more expensive than me previous software solution. It is also less powerful. While I agree with mystic 100% on the aggregation that comes with computer based daws, I have to disagree on price...

.. let me tell you a story.. As i said, i bought the fantom because i was fed up with the hassles & fluctuations in performance of my current PC daw.. 3 months after i bought the fantom, i bought a new laptop, sony viao, win7, 2.2g core duo, 64 4gb ram. I owned the laptop for several months befor i ever installed any audio softwares because I figured if my tower, which was older but technically superior to the laptop couldn't do it, why bother. Plus i had the fantom so, why bother...

.. anyway, i installed fruity loops, & asio4all & i was blown away at the performance. Absolutely flawless. I tested the hall out of it. I got 784 voice (stereo) playback from the sample player. (I couldn't press the keys fast enough to get it much higher than that. 380+ voices from some cpu heavy sytrus synth patches. I couldn't seem to add enough effects to make a major dent in the cpu either. (Within reason) I don't think I'll ever have a need for 68 high quality reverbs at once to I didn't test it..

I did all that with onboard, straight out of the box hardware. A $29 audio inderface gives me a clean connection to my mixer. $650 for the pc (which these days is probably worth about $50) $29 for noise free audio in/out. $199 for fl studio producer xxl. All my other vsts, soundfonts, etc were free. So are all the accompanying softwares. Audio editor/converters, synthedit, (for making custom vsts) vienna studio, awave studio, etc..

It's important to note that the above is a PC solution. I've noticed that many audio enthusiasts are Mac users. The above may have cost about as much as a keyboard workstation if it were a Mac solution. $1500 for the mac, & the software ain't cheap. PC software is often free.

[Mystic38]

I think you are missing my primary point bobby, that pc+s/w gives the "appearance" of being less expensive but you trade lower capital cost for higher running costs...(as you acknowledge with your $650>$50 comment). Essentially, in a 4 year period, any pc solution wont be worth a penny, but an FG will certainly still be worth $1200..

for me, in the last 18 months I have bought a second (dedicated) i7 PC at $1200, a $250 audio interface, $500 on software upgrades and new licenses.. all of which i know will be worthless in 3-4 years (new PC, better s/w, upgrades etc.. ). So, while you can buy cheaper pc and free vst, you can also get an Alesis ION for $400 :)

So i like the combination fo FG plus that crap after all, there is something quite satisfying in finally getting Sonar, Fantom G, Maschine, Nova & MS2000 all talking in sync..lol

[parker.bobby]

Yeah mystic, I think you & I are on the same page as far as depreciation goes. A solid piece of music gear can hold it's value for a long time.. I think the TR-808 goes for about as much today as it did when it came out.. but that's a special case.. :) .. computers often never make it off the showroom floor before something better comes along and makes the old one 'look like' it's obsolete.

The point i was making is that, at one time, a pc daw solution would become dated every year or so because technology was still catching up with the demands of a digital studio.. these days, all you need is a friend's old garbage PC that he was going to probably throw away anyway. Point being, dirt cheap PC's finally have more than enough power to get the job done. There is really not much reason to NEED an upgrade anymore.

6 year old DAW software has more than enough music creation & audio editing tools to make, mix, & master music & a 3 year old computer can run the software right out of the box..

A 6 year old workstation on the other hand, is close to becoming obsolete. Though you can still get way better resale than you can with a PC.

.. my niece has a $350 Acer. She is able to run fl studio on that crappy lil thing with more than enough overhead for her purposes. It's also her email machine, word processor, etc.. It's hard to value a device like that when compared to a keyboard workstation.

They don't compare. You couldn't pawn the laptop if your life depended on it. The G should resell quite well.. However, getting your 'money's worth' out of the laptop is easy. I'm still not sure whether the Fantom is actually $2000 more productive than the laptop..

..anyways.. back on topic.. I don't think there will be a V2.0. If they wait much longer, a simple software fix won't be enough to compete with the competition. Unlike PC's there is still much more room for improvement in the hardware design & raw processing power of workstations.

[Quinnx.]

Dont get me wrong..
Im will not be dumping my Fantom G.. it fits perfectly either on its own or as part of a pc/DAW setup.

As far as computer tech becoming out dated..

I dont see why this is seen to be something that will happen any faster than having a hardware workstation:
I see the pc/daw as a single block that has for the most part one purpose.

being a DAW

Once you install your VSTs fxs etc.. this is your setup just like any workstation and should keep you going for jsut as long if not longer.
If your good at your art your not going to be trying to keep up with the latest and greatest
especialy if you have planned ahead.
and just because a new version of windows comes along does not make the current daw any less
of a performer.

My main arguemnt overall is not against the workstation but against the reasoning to be playing catchup everytime a new one is released
its just waisting money and deminising your mastery of what you had and is more expensive when you take this path every time.

A good workstation is best for portability for live performance..
the pc DAW is king for production or in the studio.

Neither is a replacement for the other.

[parker.bobby]

Well put Quinxx. I'm not about to play catch up every few years.. as it is now, I'd say that most hardware has surpassed it's initial intended purpose. I.e. sampling synthesizer workstations with audio track recording?? WOW, did anyone see that coming back in 1992?? Not me. The same is true for PC's. A moderately priced PC can do some serious video editing these days. That's more cpu power than most users will ever need..

I'd say, these days if you feel like upgrading, it's more of a want than a need. Most of us own more than enough sophisticated gear to make commercial quality music.

[Don Ronaldo]

Hello together. Quinxx, I fully agree to your last sentence. As a electronic engineer, I believe, that the Roland hardware is first class- especially compared to Korg and others. The only thing I'm really missing is a flash ram expansion, so that I dont need to wait for samples to be loaded into RAM.

[Quinnx.]

I agree flash ram would be nice..
However, given that we still have to wait when loading projects from usb for the most part, it would not entirely remove this from the G.

On the X there was kinda a workaround.

The X had both USER: and Card: project available at one time..(USER: is flash)
I use to use the USER: to keep important wavs and patches i always wanted to be available and then the CARD: would have everything else..

Unfortunately the G don't have that so we no longer have this..
Now we do have the internal project that's always in the G but it never gets loaded once you use your USB.
So we could lets say install a 2GB flash and fill it up but.. if you ever need to load a Project from USB everything stored in FLASH is no longer available.
Also with flash the fantom G you can only ever have 1 Project so you dont have any advantage to load any other project to take advantage of load speed either and even if we ignore the one project limitation,
Kinda takes away any real usefulness to having any flash at all on the G.

[Don Ronaldo]

Quinnx: I can see the problem but I dont think, that it's a great one. Please correct me, if I'm wrong:
1.) FG organizes the workstation content in closed projects.
2.) It's possible to switch between different projects, but only one project can be active.

If one routes the max. available workstation content (wav, samples, patches, songs, phrases, etc.), together in a flash ram and link it to an alias folder structure, where the FG expect to find it, then the FG wouln't recognize the trick. Due to the high memory bandwidth of flash compared to USB2, the workflow would be improoved drastically. New content should be oploaded directly to the flash ram and a reset would update the FG's volatile ram from the flash drive quite quickly.

What do you think? Did I miss something?

[Quinnx.]

1 and 2 are correct, but im not sure what your trying to explain after that.
??

[Don Ronaldo]

I'm describing a very basic spec. for the integration of a flash ram board.

[parker.bobby]

Don, if you CAN build it, then build it. Tell us how it went.

[Don Ronaldo]

Parker.bobby: I dont want to annoy anybody. I just answered a question. I'll start in my summer holidays :)

[Mystic38]

anyway, as my fantom aint leaving anytime soon a V2.0 firmware would be nice... :)

[Don Ronaldo]

Hello Mystic38: Since I've set myself a clear target, I digged much deeper into the designated workflow of the FG. As expected, Roland developed a very fine piece of hardware and I dont think that it can be improoved much. Such thing like "product cycles, evolution, etc.. In particular maximIzing profit" are limiting factors of course and most likely Roland may not like my ideas - but: I dont care about it, since I dont like the throwaway society to much. The FG is more than I really need and if Roland dont cares, I'll do it my own ;)

[parker.bobby]

Hi don. I wasn't trying to be rude. & you're not annoying anyone.. I applaud your ambition. I'm a computer programmer & lately I have been building software to accompany the Fantom G.

My Fantom G Organizer can be found here:
http://db.tt/3dreUztA