Hey guys,
I'm a pro songwriter (do pop and Christian but country pays the bills)
I have always done 50% or so of my own demos using my stuff (various, keys, modules and my acoustics in pro tools) then lately I've been cutting tracks with session guys but it's the same guys everybody uses so I hate that it all sounds the same...so now I'm going back to doing alot of my own demos and I want to update machines and modules.
So...I've demoed the s88 and the triton extreme..I love the way the fantom is laid out kinda for songwriters (the pads, get a loop going then writing on the board and being able to record right into the sequencer..then into PT in grid mode and there's the base for your demo) and it looks like there's reason to get the X8 instead of the the s-8 (right?) I was wondering what (for pop and Christian) other racks i might get as well that you guys think might fill the gaps left by the X8 sounds...I was thinking maybe the motif rack or the triton rack or is there something I'm missing..I thought about getting the X8 and the Triton extreme but I thought that might be overkill....
Any advice would be great..I respect the knowledge in this forum.
BTW, does anyone know if the fantom x will lock to MTC (for example will it lock with protools via MTC without an addtional interface?)
Thanks,
Brad
...Carry on, Sweet Southern Comfort....
Need Advice
Re: Need Advice
Great to have you here. First of all, the decision must be made - computer and software synths versus a hardware keyboard workstation, or a combination of both.
It sounds like you are in Nashville, and isn't that town almost completely ruled by Pro Tools? If so, then maybe you want to think about how to most easily get your demo tracks transfered into Pro Tools, even if those tracks will later be scrubbed.
If you want to go the hardware keyboard workstation route, then the three current pro models are: (not counting the myriad of "arranger" keyboards, some of which are quite professional) Korg Triton Extreme, Roland Fantom-X, and Yamaha Motif ES.
To me, any one of these keyboards would do a very respectable demo on their own. They all have over 100 voices of polyphony, tons of great onboard sounds, and the ability to incorporate samples, etc...
Here's a few things to think about: The Fantom-X cannot automatically insert your audio phrases into the sequenced track. You can sample as the sequence is playing, but you have to manually paste it into the track. The Korg and Yamaha can do this. The Yamaha Motif ES with the MLan is going to be a force to be reckoned with - you will be able to transfer 14-16 tracks digitally to the DAW like Pro Tools. That may be a factor. The Korg is, well the Korg - the gold standard for certain types of music and the Extreme has a number of new features that make it mighty enticing. Finally, only the Fantom-X is currently available in a rack, so you might want to go with that for around $12-1300, added to either the Triton EX or the Motif ES. That would be a system with quite alot of range.
I would consider what features are most important and then see which workstation excites you on a live listening comparison. There is no substitute for a hands-on demo and as has been said many times around here and other places - it's the sound that is the most important thing.
I'm thinking the Motif ES with the MLan option combined with the Fantom-X rack is the way to go for the type of stuff you're talking about. The Triton EX, while certainly a great axe, might be more geared toward hip-hop and R&B, however a guy on Motifator.com who specializes in orchestral arranging claims the Triton EX is fantastic for that. So again, it's the hands-on demo that should seal the deal.
Finally, here's some links to forums which focus on the other two keyboards:
www.motifator.com (click on forums)
www.irishacts.com (click on forums - choose Triton Extreme)
www.tritonhaven.com (click on forums - Triton Extreme)
Hope that helps.
It sounds like you are in Nashville, and isn't that town almost completely ruled by Pro Tools? If so, then maybe you want to think about how to most easily get your demo tracks transfered into Pro Tools, even if those tracks will later be scrubbed.
If you want to go the hardware keyboard workstation route, then the three current pro models are: (not counting the myriad of "arranger" keyboards, some of which are quite professional) Korg Triton Extreme, Roland Fantom-X, and Yamaha Motif ES.
To me, any one of these keyboards would do a very respectable demo on their own. They all have over 100 voices of polyphony, tons of great onboard sounds, and the ability to incorporate samples, etc...
Here's a few things to think about: The Fantom-X cannot automatically insert your audio phrases into the sequenced track. You can sample as the sequence is playing, but you have to manually paste it into the track. The Korg and Yamaha can do this. The Yamaha Motif ES with the MLan is going to be a force to be reckoned with - you will be able to transfer 14-16 tracks digitally to the DAW like Pro Tools. That may be a factor. The Korg is, well the Korg - the gold standard for certain types of music and the Extreme has a number of new features that make it mighty enticing. Finally, only the Fantom-X is currently available in a rack, so you might want to go with that for around $12-1300, added to either the Triton EX or the Motif ES. That would be a system with quite alot of range.
I would consider what features are most important and then see which workstation excites you on a live listening comparison. There is no substitute for a hands-on demo and as has been said many times around here and other places - it's the sound that is the most important thing.
I'm thinking the Motif ES with the MLan option combined with the Fantom-X rack is the way to go for the type of stuff you're talking about. The Triton EX, while certainly a great axe, might be more geared toward hip-hop and R&B, however a guy on Motifator.com who specializes in orchestral arranging claims the Triton EX is fantastic for that. So again, it's the hands-on demo that should seal the deal.
Finally, here's some links to forums which focus on the other two keyboards:
www.motifator.com (click on forums)
www.irishacts.com (click on forums - choose Triton Extreme)
www.tritonhaven.com (click on forums - Triton Extreme)
Hope that helps.
Re: Need Advice
To answer your question regarding MTC sync, yes, the Fantom-X6/X7/X8 can sync to MTC at 24, 25, 30 drop-frame or 30 non-drop-frame frames per second. It also supports MMC (MIDI Machine Control). It can act as a master or slave with MTC and MMC. No additional hardware is required for this functionality (other than a MIDI cable or USB cable if you intend to use the FX's USB MIDI implementation).
Nathan Sheldon
http://www.nathansheldon.com/
Nathan Sheldon
http://www.nathansheldon.com/
Re: Need Advice
thanks so much for the info.
Yeah, I've been a Pro Tools head for many years and that's unltimatly where everything will end up.
When you say "can't insert audio phrases directly into the sequence" do you meant that I can't import samples, assign them to the pads and use those samples in a sequence...or are you talking about vocal tracks and such....
If I can lock the fantom to pro tools via MTC (which I can according to the post below) and send the tracks two at a time via digital out then the Mlan thing isn't that appealing, right?
I like having the pads...and if I go with the Fantom-x 88 with a motif rack..aren't I getting the best of both worlds? or am I being redundant?
Also, if $$ wasn't an issue, would you rather have the Fantom X88 and the Motif rack OR a Fantom X 88 and the Triton Extreme 61?
Thanks so much, it's great to find a forum..even if I'm the only guy that's not making hip hop:)
Brad
...Carry on, Sweet Southern Comfort....
Yeah, I've been a Pro Tools head for many years and that's unltimatly where everything will end up.
When you say "can't insert audio phrases directly into the sequence" do you meant that I can't import samples, assign them to the pads and use those samples in a sequence...or are you talking about vocal tracks and such....
If I can lock the fantom to pro tools via MTC (which I can according to the post below) and send the tracks two at a time via digital out then the Mlan thing isn't that appealing, right?
I like having the pads...and if I go with the Fantom-x 88 with a motif rack..aren't I getting the best of both worlds? or am I being redundant?
Also, if $$ wasn't an issue, would you rather have the Fantom X88 and the Motif rack OR a Fantom X 88 and the Triton Extreme 61?
Thanks so much, it's great to find a forum..even if I'm the only guy that's not making hip hop:)
Brad
...Carry on, Sweet Southern Comfort....
Re: Need Advice
What 2TIM means is that when you record input at the same that you are playing back a sequence (which is possible), the Fantom does not automatically insert that audio into a track in your sequence for you. Because it is a sampler and not a hard disk recorder, the recording you do from audio input is saved in RAM. You then assign that sample either to a pad or the keyboard, then insert (or record) a note-on message associated with that sample into a sequencer track at the appropriate time. This differs from the Triton Studio in that the Triton Studio has a hard disk recorder (2 track) and recordings done in sequencer mode show up as audio tracks automatically. I haven't used either the Triton or Motif so I can't speak from experience.
You certainly can import audio samples (in AIFF or WAV format, Roland has not yet released the Akai S1000/3000 and Roland S-7xx conversion software) into the Fantom's RAM and assign them to pads or the keyboard.
Nathan Sheldon
http://www.nathansheldon.com/
You certainly can import audio samples (in AIFF or WAV format, Roland has not yet released the Akai S1000/3000 and Roland S-7xx conversion software) into the Fantom's RAM and assign them to pads or the keyboard.
Nathan Sheldon
http://www.nathansheldon.com/
Re: Need Advice
I'd go for the X88 and Triton Extreme 61 combo 
-=(9FiRE)=-
-=(9FiRE)=-
Re: Need Advice
I forgot to mention, probably the most important thing sound-wise is that I have the greatest number of great electric guitar sounds....not sure which board or module has them...any opinions...?
Bc
...Carry on, Sweet Southern Comfort....
Bc
...Carry on, Sweet Southern Comfort....
Re: Need Advice
Thanks for contributing here Nate! I really enjoy reading your posts. Brad - first of all the Motif Rack is NOT the same as the Motif ES. It does not have many of the sounds the newer ES has. It is more a rack version of the original Motif "Classic" with doubled polyphony and more effects. However it does not have any card storage or user sample loading. Plus it has an external power supply which I just can't stand.
The Fantom-X rack is an exact duplicate of the Fantom-X keyboard, minus the display and certain parts of the sequencing. So unless you absolutely love the pads and the way the Fantom-X handles sequencing, I would look at the rack, since the other two players (Motif ES and Triton EX) do not have an equivalent rack version. Thus you could go with either the Motif ES keyboard or Triton Extreme keyboard combined with the Fantom-X rack and have the best of both worlds. You would really have an amazing range of sounds with those two units.
Regarding guitars - very subjective. The Fantom-X has added some new samples to the original Fantom-S soundset that are pretty amazing. Definitely worth checking out. Many people love the Motif guitars too, combined with the many arpeggiator patterns offered. And the Korg guitars are a staple of many hip-hop and smooth R&B records. That's a call only you can make, but again, mixing the Fantom-X rack and its guitars with either the Korg Extreme or Motif ES would be a pretty potent combination that would provide a huge pallette of guitar sounds.
The Fantom-X rack is an exact duplicate of the Fantom-X keyboard, minus the display and certain parts of the sequencing. So unless you absolutely love the pads and the way the Fantom-X handles sequencing, I would look at the rack, since the other two players (Motif ES and Triton EX) do not have an equivalent rack version. Thus you could go with either the Motif ES keyboard or Triton Extreme keyboard combined with the Fantom-X rack and have the best of both worlds. You would really have an amazing range of sounds with those two units.
Regarding guitars - very subjective. The Fantom-X has added some new samples to the original Fantom-S soundset that are pretty amazing. Definitely worth checking out. Many people love the Motif guitars too, combined with the many arpeggiator patterns offered. And the Korg guitars are a staple of many hip-hop and smooth R&B records. That's a call only you can make, but again, mixing the Fantom-X rack and its guitars with either the Korg Extreme or Motif ES would be a pretty potent combination that would provide a huge pallette of guitar sounds.
Re: Need Advice
Hello again. Thanks 2TIM. I enjoy reading your posts as well. Always seem to be objective.
Brad, 2TIM has some good points. Though the arpeggios on the Fantom-X are decent and can be useful, from my limited exposure to the Motif ES, the arpeggios seem a bit more flexible on the Motif ES. The Fantom-X has made some improvements over the Fantom-S with the Chord memory section (chords can now be played as "rolls", or broken chords where the harder you play the chord, the faster it rolls the cord, like strumming a guitar).
As for the guitar patches on the Fantom-X, there aren't any new electric guitar samples with the FX (there are new electric bass waveforms and new nylon guitar waveforms). There may be new electric guitar patches based on the old FS waveforms in the 2 additional patch banks the FX includes, but I haven't gone through all the patches yet to be sure.
Kind regards.
Nathan Sheldon
http://www.nathansheldon.com/
Brad, 2TIM has some good points. Though the arpeggios on the Fantom-X are decent and can be useful, from my limited exposure to the Motif ES, the arpeggios seem a bit more flexible on the Motif ES. The Fantom-X has made some improvements over the Fantom-S with the Chord memory section (chords can now be played as "rolls", or broken chords where the harder you play the chord, the faster it rolls the cord, like strumming a guitar).
As for the guitar patches on the Fantom-X, there aren't any new electric guitar samples with the FX (there are new electric bass waveforms and new nylon guitar waveforms). There may be new electric guitar patches based on the old FS waveforms in the 2 additional patch banks the FX includes, but I haven't gone through all the patches yet to be sure.
Kind regards.
Nathan Sheldon
http://www.nathansheldon.com/
Re: Need Advice
Wow...So you guys, in this Fantom forum, are recomending the MotifES??
Now that's honesty:)
I agree the Motif rocks, I just don't see why getting a FX-88 and the Motif rack isn't just as good...it has the arps and the sounds...and I don't need Two samplers...I guess what you guys are saying is the MotifES has a better sampler and arps and getting it and the Rack FX would still get me the skipback and sounds, right?..what about the sequencer on the MotifEs, is it as easy to use as the Fantom?
Thanks so much, I'm spending a lot of money these next few days and you guys are helping decided where it's going:)
bc
...Carry on, Sweet Southern Comfort....
Now that's honesty:)
I agree the Motif rocks, I just don't see why getting a FX-88 and the Motif rack isn't just as good...it has the arps and the sounds...and I don't need Two samplers...I guess what you guys are saying is the MotifES has a better sampler and arps and getting it and the Rack FX would still get me the skipback and sounds, right?..what about the sequencer on the MotifEs, is it as easy to use as the Fantom?
Thanks so much, I'm spending a lot of money these next few days and you guys are helping decided where it's going:)
bc
...Carry on, Sweet Southern Comfort....
Re: Need Advice
Hey Brian.
I have only tried out the Motif ES for 20 min or so at the local Guitar Center so I don't know enough about it to recommend it. I do know what others have said about the Motif ES regarding the arpeggio and what I experienced at the Guitar Center. I chose the Fantom-X8 because...
1) The interfaced on the Fantom-X is superior.
2) Familiarity with Roland gear and methods of editing patches and sequencing.
3) Great sounds.
4) Ease of sampler interface.
5) Great keyboard feel and durability.
From my prior experience with Yamaha consumer musical instruments, I tend to look favorably on their professional products as well.
As to whether the Motif ES sampler section, I have no idea how it differs from the Fantom-X so I can't comment.
With the arpeggiators, I only know what I heard on the Motif ES and what I've done on my Fantom-X8. The Motif ES arpeggios sounded a bit more expressive, but that is a very subjective assessment. The Fantom-X8 arpeggios are quite usable as well.
As far as I know, you don't get Skip-Back Sampling on the Fantom-XR, just the X6, X7, and X8. Also, although the same piano patches are available on the XR, you don't get the dedicated "Piano Mode."
Regarding the sequencers, I've never used the Motif ES sequencer. However, it's difficult to imagine a sequencer easier than the Fantom's You simply cannot show as much information on the Motif ES screen as you can on the Fantom screen.
Nathan Sheldon
http://www.nathansheldon.com/
I have only tried out the Motif ES for 20 min or so at the local Guitar Center so I don't know enough about it to recommend it. I do know what others have said about the Motif ES regarding the arpeggio and what I experienced at the Guitar Center. I chose the Fantom-X8 because...
1) The interfaced on the Fantom-X is superior.
2) Familiarity with Roland gear and methods of editing patches and sequencing.
3) Great sounds.
4) Ease of sampler interface.
5) Great keyboard feel and durability.
From my prior experience with Yamaha consumer musical instruments, I tend to look favorably on their professional products as well.
As to whether the Motif ES sampler section, I have no idea how it differs from the Fantom-X so I can't comment.
With the arpeggiators, I only know what I heard on the Motif ES and what I've done on my Fantom-X8. The Motif ES arpeggios sounded a bit more expressive, but that is a very subjective assessment. The Fantom-X8 arpeggios are quite usable as well.
As far as I know, you don't get Skip-Back Sampling on the Fantom-XR, just the X6, X7, and X8. Also, although the same piano patches are available on the XR, you don't get the dedicated "Piano Mode."
Regarding the sequencers, I've never used the Motif ES sequencer. However, it's difficult to imagine a sequencer easier than the Fantom's You simply cannot show as much information on the Motif ES screen as you can on the Fantom screen.
Nathan Sheldon
http://www.nathansheldon.com/
Re: Need Advice
The Motif ES has some sounds the Motif Rack hasn't got.
Electric guitars? I don't know if arrangers interest you at all, but I'd have to say the Yamaha Tyros has superb acoustic and electric guitar sounds. I'm not sure if the Motif ES has all the same guitar waves as the Tyros has, but that might be something worth finding out. I'm sure some of it has to do with arps and such, but I know some of it doesn't. Listen to some Tyros demos, New Country and Blues just for starters. I was pretty impressed, and I'm a guitar player.
Electric guitars? I don't know if arrangers interest you at all, but I'd have to say the Yamaha Tyros has superb acoustic and electric guitar sounds. I'm not sure if the Motif ES has all the same guitar waves as the Tyros has, but that might be something worth finding out. I'm sure some of it has to do with arps and such, but I know some of it doesn't. Listen to some Tyros demos, New Country and Blues just for starters. I was pretty impressed, and I'm a guitar player.
Off Topic, but since you are a professional songwriter..
Are you a staff writer for a label, or independent? I'm always looking for good songs. I do Country and Christian country music. Check my website for more details if you have any interest.
Re: Need Advice
Thanks for the compliments Brad. We pride ourselves on being a cut above the typical synth/workstation bulletin board. That's first and foremost thanks to our fearless leader and the site's creator Artemio. He is not only an amazing web designer - both graphic and even more important content organization - but he is also one of the most knowledgable "Fantomites" around. Along with many of the other regulars, we are proud of what this site's become over the past year or so.
And this thread typically demonstrates our style - intelligent, civil, (mostly) and usually unbiased.
With that I will only add that it seems that you are not clear on the differences between the Motif, the Motif ES, and the Motif Rack. The Rack is not a Motif ES. It does not have the expanded wave ROM, nor the new chip Yamaha used in the Motif ES. It also does not sample nor play back user samples. Finally it does not take any type of memory card so its data must be transferred via computer. And last but not least - annoying to me - it uses an external power supply. I very much wish that Yamaha would release a Motif ES Rack, which could very well happen this summer, but no official word or even rumor, save for a couple of blips earlier this year on this site. Therefore I would not count on it.
So choosing the Motif Rack over the Motif ES would lose you a certain amount of the ES's internal sounds via the new wave ROM plus any benefits of the new chip.
Hope that clears things up.
And this thread typically demonstrates our style - intelligent, civil, (mostly
) and usually unbiased.With that I will only add that it seems that you are not clear on the differences between the Motif, the Motif ES, and the Motif Rack. The Rack is not a Motif ES. It does not have the expanded wave ROM, nor the new chip Yamaha used in the Motif ES. It also does not sample nor play back user samples. Finally it does not take any type of memory card so its data must be transferred via computer. And last but not least - annoying to me - it uses an external power supply. I very much wish that Yamaha would release a Motif ES Rack, which could very well happen this summer, but no official word or even rumor, save for a couple of blips earlier this year on this site. Therefore I would not count on it.
So choosing the Motif Rack over the Motif ES would lose you a certain amount of the ES's internal sounds via the new wave ROM plus any benefits of the new chip.
Hope that clears things up.
Re: Need Advice
I've found that just about every synth's operating system I've learned is set up pretty logically and can be managed easily once you're familiar with the layout and which button/knob/wheel/slider does what. But I can say that of the Korg Triton, Kurzweil K2000 and Roland XP-80 OS's I've learned, I like the Roland best (for fewest button pushes - or screen taps in the case of the Triton - to get to the parameter I want...and for most intelligently laid out interface) and, from what I've seen, the Fantom is arranged similarly to the XP. I've not really used a Yamaha workstation, though.
Definitely try out each synth before buying. I almost bought a Fantom X6 without trying it first, but went to the local MI retailer and played one (not bad at all), but found myself more intriqued by the Motif ES. I did no sequencing on the ES, but found the guitar sounds to be quite to my liking and I love the diverse arpeggio possibilities (I think the guitar arps are constructed using a Yamaha guitar MIDI translator - or whatever it's called). With my other workstations I could get nothing even remotely resembling a guitar strum (I'm only a hobbyist and have little such musical talent), so the Motif ES if appealing in that respect. I tried some basic patch editing (~"synthesis") on the ES and found it not so bad, but not done as easily as on the Fantom, plus the Fantom had more modulation possibilities.
If you want a potentially sweet VST plug-in that may meet your guitar needs, check out the Real Guitar program at musiclab.com. I don't know much about it, but I watched a video demonstration of the software and was very impressed by the results (moreso than any guitar sample/emulation/arp I've encountered).
Personally, I would include the Kurzweil K series of synths in with the "big names" in workstations. I've used only the K2000 - the new K2661 and the K2600 are the current models - but it, although 10 y/o, still does a lot of things better than the "big 3". The Sweetwater Ultimate Guitars CD sounds great on a Kurzweil synth.
To borrow a question from Rick Warren: What does Christian MUSIC sound like?
Definitely try out each synth before buying. I almost bought a Fantom X6 without trying it first, but went to the local MI retailer and played one (not bad at all), but found myself more intriqued by the Motif ES. I did no sequencing on the ES, but found the guitar sounds to be quite to my liking and I love the diverse arpeggio possibilities (I think the guitar arps are constructed using a Yamaha guitar MIDI translator - or whatever it's called). With my other workstations I could get nothing even remotely resembling a guitar strum (I'm only a hobbyist and have little such musical talent), so the Motif ES if appealing in that respect. I tried some basic patch editing (~"synthesis") on the ES and found it not so bad, but not done as easily as on the Fantom, plus the Fantom had more modulation possibilities.
If you want a potentially sweet VST plug-in that may meet your guitar needs, check out the Real Guitar program at musiclab.com. I don't know much about it, but I watched a video demonstration of the software and was very impressed by the results (moreso than any guitar sample/emulation/arp I've encountered).
Personally, I would include the Kurzweil K series of synths in with the "big names" in workstations. I've used only the K2000 - the new K2661 and the K2600 are the current models - but it, although 10 y/o, still does a lot of things better than the "big 3". The Sweetwater Ultimate Guitars CD sounds great on a Kurzweil synth.
To borrow a question from Rick Warren: What does Christian MUSIC sound like?