Is this the Fantom G Good News! only forum??

[Quinnx.]

Its seems that healthy discussion on the forum regarding the Fantom G is conditional these days.

Why is it that when someone states something good about the fantom its allowed to run its course...

but when something bad is said its not?

Are`nt discussions suppose to be about opposite points of view?
Someone new comes to the forum and says.. something like..

"WOW the FantomG is the bees knees why all the critics"
Of couse this will get a back lash of what was said before because the question has been asked it needs to be answered.

Now its seem as long as responses go positive towards the G discussion remains
but if it goes towards the left its closed?
How is that healthy?

so it appears that positive posts are just as likely to get negative as much as it is positive.

But it seems all thats wanted is the positive balance out ways the negative in a post and even a 50:50 discussion is not wanted either. especially if the last 50% is negative.

newbies dont know any different and will blunder in with the honeymoon glow. (maybe there should be a newbies post for them to start their assimilation in to the forum where they wont be attacked.

Without opposite opinion there is no discussion.
Maybe we should break it down for people..
have specific posts for specific topic and make them sticky's
Multi FX discussion

Sequencer Discussion

Patches/samples discussion

Audio Track Discussion

Mixing and Mastering Discussion

Newbies Questions and answers

Firmware OS discussion

if these are made sticky's then people wont be repeating them selves and everyone can refer to a specific topic on the discussion

[Artemiy]

Quinnx., I respect all kinds of opinions, and I think in the last few months I have shown that even more than I should. What did this lead to? Forum flooded with repeating rants. To me it seemed like some members simply copied and pasted what they wrote half a year ago, a year ago, earlier. That is not funny at all. That is ridiculous.

This is not a forum which you can flood like you want. This is not censorship of opinions, but this is just cleanup of the house. Please understand this once and for all. We're doing what we think is best for the community. It is actually very hard to take this responsibility and hear these complaints on and on - it hurts actually.

[quebec88]

Personally, I could care less. I'm enjoying my Fantom G and that's all that matters. I browse the forums just to see if anything worth while is present. I ignore the rants and other crap. It's not my problem. In fact, if I run into a problem or question about something, I just figure it out myself, just like the old days before the Internet was available. Creativity can be your best friend!

[Quinnx.]

"To me it seemed like some members simply copied and pasted what they wrote half a year ago"

which leads me back to my original suggestion of sticky topics.
No one will need to repeat them selves because the topic is already open and currently discussed..

[CShorte]

+1001 ... with quebec88 ...

[SH1000]

I agree with Quinnx +1

Again and again non-positive topics are locked so they will disappear.

[thekeymaster]

I think it depends on the topic.I think Quinnx has a point and the sticky idea seems a good one but I suppose from Art's point of view it must be quite annoying to see a thread start off on one subject matter and like a chinese whisper see it mutate to the same issues over and over again.

I do think now and again it would be wise to let some threads develop,especially when it comes to negative criticism.The key to moderating is to wade through the threads and sift out what potentially could turn into a repeated theme.

Glad I don't moderate.

The thing is I have only recently purchased my Fantom G after waiting for about 18 months to get one.I have been on this forum on many occasions just browsing the threads doing research and such and just like the Korg forums on the OASYS there have been similar patterns of discussion.The negatives really racked up but I have to say both the moderators on there and Art and everyone here seem to try and be as fair as possible.I for one would encourage as much debate as possible be it negative or positive as long as there is respect between members and the topic doesn't begin to sway too far from the original poster's query or comment.

I think I would like to see less locking of certain threads but ultimately that is not my decision....that is for Art to decide.After all the buck stops with him.

[piaknowguy]

Glad I don't moderate.

LOL! Thanks for your support, Thekeymaster!

Check out the number of threads that 'rant' and then compare that to the number positive threads that are not infected by someone ranting! It's like a cancer! I think Artemiy allows more-than-enough forum space for those who wish to complain. Don't you agree? If not, then why not?

Show me a 'positive' thread that remains so! Is this the 'Fantom G Good News Only' forum? You tell me.

PiaKnowGuy
Please listen to 'Storm Chaser' if you wish.


PiaKnow

[Jimknopf]

Quinnx, from my view the simple answer to your thread question is „Yes“.

I don’t want to judge unjust towards you, Artemiy. I recognize that you perhaps tried to tolerate a little more freedom of speech after our main conflicts. And I even saw some (for me) surprising criticisms from you. I don’t see any problem in the fact that you know and like people you have met from Roland staff. That’s just a good human experience to live in positive relations.

But:
a) First of all I don’t see any direct or indirect copy and paste activity from anyone in here. It is rather obvious, that people are convinced of what they experience and evaluate, and there are clearly recognizable patterns of opinions among ALL of us, and you yourself are very much included. In a way no argument is as repetitive and “cut and paste”-like as the one you regularly use for closing threads.
It is rare and nice, that we still casually surprise each other, because we thankfully are no robots and are moving, even where other people rather tend to see us fixed in certain roles.

b) As far as I can see it is not true that critical threads are more repetitive than the “fanboy” or “enthusiastic beginner” kind. The only difference is that joyful messages are openly, visibly and massively supported and encouraged by moderators and other fanboys, while critical threads are very often set under pressure and then closed.

c) My (subjective) impression is that this forum exists under a hard to define form of more or less massive Roland influence. I don’t know if that could be due to casual direct feedback from relations to Roland staff, or from people being very close to Roland, or if that is rather an indirect form of pressure, internalized by some forum moderators and members, without Roland staff interfering or asking critical questions in any way. However, it seems VERY obvious that SOME kind of massive pressure does exist.

d) The most obvious point of pressure seems to be the following recurring phenomenon to me:
as soon as certain critical questions or messages appear in headers, like the recent “Feedback on Fantom G: Operating System Needs Major Update“, the critical point seems not so much, what really happens in the thread, but the pure fact that a header like this is broadly discussed and keeps appearing on top of the threads, seems to be crucial. And then regularly the same thing happens: the thread is locked for reasons I can't remotely understand in most cases, aside from the obvious need to get a critical headline out of the message focus BY ALL MEANS. Maybe some Roland related people have the suspicion that others keep such threads alive for the same purpose, just to do harm to Roland. But from my experience this is paranoid nonsense for 95% of what happens.

So I must admit that the locking practise looks a lot like
- either Roland not wishing to see such headlines in longer discussions (paranoid version: “the world is full of enemies from the competition: they should be stopped!”)
- or there might be some people not being able to bear the simple fact that critical things are discussed for a longer time, and that this wil stay this way, just as long as Roland doesn’t do anything or almost nothing about the problems discussed.

Unsatisfied customers will complain until at least a part of their problems are addressed. Whoever can’t deal with that simple fact should not be in any business, or in any directly or indirectly business related forum where opinios are exchanged in any open way.

P.S.
Piaknowguy: I find it unacceptable that you call critical feedback geting into threads "cancer". I don't like a lot of what's going on here, including fanboyism creeping into critical threads just as often, but no matter how sick it appears in my eyes, I would never call it "cancer" or cancer-like.

[Artemiy]

Jim, you know, you are overcomplicating things quite a bit. Don't search for the reasons so deeply - I seriously ask you.

I can repeat this - I am here 2-3 hours a day believe it or not, since 2003. I know how discussions develop and where they lead to. They develop into endless flood and lead to nowhere. And **I don't want it to be like that**.

I therefore choose to steer the boat so it doesn't stick it's nose into sand.

Am I clear enough?

Call it the way you want... I am trying to settle a different mood here, that's it.

Also...

My (subjective) impression is that this forum exists under a hard to define form of more or less massive Roland influence.

You know, since 2003, I haven't had a single ask from any Roland person to do something in this forum. I mean it. All decisions I make are mine and are not influenced by anyone at Roland. This forum receives $0.00 from Roland and is totally independent. I can shut it down or sell it anytime I want, but I love you guys too much

[Artemiy]

Oh, damn piaknowguy is right!

There is no single "I love my Fantom-G thread" that doesn't end up with all the whiners turning it up into crap! We have closed even more such threads recently. And yes I would too call this CANCER.

[cyclops]

If I could use statistics to show what kind of discusions are "tolerated" in the Clan, I would say that 80% positive and 20% negative discussions are allowed. And maybe the 20% I say is too much. Others could say that only 5% or 10% negative discussions are allowed, or even less.

And what I mean by "80% positive and 20% negative discussions are allowed"??? Just check every thread that gathered a lot of bad critics by lots of users. What happens every single time, just to break the so-called "rant". Well, we all know what happens then: sRa appears with some fancy photo, making fun of all the people that complain, only to degrade a discussion that damages Roland's profile.

Am I the only one that has noticed this?

Ah, and my answer to Quinnx's initial question is "Hell, YES!"

[Jimknopf]

Art, if you say there is no direct influence, I believe you.
But that makes me think even more of misled forms of internalized bonds and limits.

Critical threads may be long, becuase they mirror understandable frustration. But they are never endless. In our free forum they dry out soon regularly, BECAUSE everyone is free to say it as he or she feels and does not have to please the view of others.

Else shame on the "cancer" language from my side!

[piaknowguy]

*Rolls eyes and sighs*

on·ly   
–adverb
1.without others or anything further; alone; solely; exclusively: This information is for your eyes only.
2.no more than; merely; just: If it were only true! I cook only on weekends.
3.as recently as: I read that article only yesterday.
4.in the final outcome or decision: You will only regret your harsh words to me.

PiaKnowGuy
Please listen to 'Storm Chaser' if you wish.


PiaKnow

[Jimknopf]

Now come on, not so hard to understand:

"Only" like "only one kind of messages welcome"
Critical views rather blocked sooner than later.

And if this meaning wasn't clear from the start (to me it was), then I tell you, that this is how I understood Quinnx from the start.

It would be better to take the obvious content of Quinnx message serious than to make a wording question of it's title.