Coakley piano vs. SRX-11

[psionic11]

Hi all, I know the subject of piano sounds on the Fantom has been discussed much, and I have read through many posts already on the forum. I was initially a bit disappointd by the stock pianos on my Xa, but have settled on So True as decent enough sound for scratch work. It is lacking in sonic richness tho and the velocity switching is obviously crude, so I've decided to purchase a better piano sound to use in my Xa.

For those who have both the SRX-11 and Coaxley's piano, what are the advantages/disadvantges of each. Points such as load times, realistic sustain, and expressiveness are what I'm specifically wondering about.

Since there are no options to audition either of these sounds (other than the mp3s, which I've heard), your experiences would be appreciated.

[Bartology]

I would invest in a weighted 88 keys instrument to link to your Xa. You will hear that the piano sample will sound much more dynamic.

Playing the piano on synth keys sucks big time!!!

FantomX7, Motif7, CVP-96 and some other stuff

[thunderkyss]

My standards may be lower than yours, as I haven't noticed the problems you've mentioned with "So True". I think "So True" is suited for more than just scratch work. It sounds great in a mix, live work, or studio work even. I wouldn't go so far as Solo Piano work, but it's much better than just a scratch piano. IMHO.

I'd like to second the idea of getting a weighted Action Keyboard. I own the FantomX8, and the FantomS. So true, warm piano, and concert piano are some of my favorite piano sounds. But they sound soooooo much better on the X. I midi'd them together and played the S from the X's keyboard, again they sound closer to the X. Especially So True.

But, I believe every piano has it's use. I wouldn't see anything wrong, in getting both. I'm a big fan of William's Piano, and will add it to my arsenal, even though I am not a piano player(per se). But this doesn't have to be an either or situation.

I'd even visit Nathan Sheldon's website, and get the patches he's created for the X piano's from his website.


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[MarkShovel]

I want to know how SRX11 compares to patches like UltimateGrand in the Fantom X8. I downloaded Coakley's piano comparison of his to the Giga-sampled Bose piano and really learned quite a few subtle details about the piano sounds. I then listened to UltimateGrand and found it had the same good characteristics he was championing on his samples.

I believe you have to rethink what makes a good piano sound based on your band environment. Are you a solo piano, do you have a live drummer, is there a distorted guitar in the mix?

Mark

[Kakaroto]

As a pianist I can say that the ultimategrand is not close enough to a real piano, although the first impression can be quite good. Which is good for live shows with bands, when no one really checks your piano in case it sounds good enough. I performed with only a singer, with the ultimate, and people were amazed.

When it comes to how good is really the sound...Not close enough:\
I can describe it as really not great samples with good engineers that knows how to use the Fantom to make the samples sound good. I think that So True is a best when it comes to the first moment. But its sustain and release are less realistic.

Heavy keyboard will obviously increase the fill, no doubt.

I think I'll buy an expansion for myself. But if I'm going to pay 250-300$ for anything, it should really sound awesome.
I recommand that you'll check out anything before you buy. I don't know how, and I have the same problem. But you need to play a piano, not hear it, to decide.

A good sampled piano should have that rare sound when the attack comes in. Almost like you hear the hammer strumming the strings. Many pianos can sound good when you hear them on mp3. But when I hear that strum I know that the samples and edit are really really good.

Hope it helps. My advice is to try before you buy;) Or listen A LOT.

Yours, Guy

A proud owner of a Fantom X8 !!
"Life is not a waffle" - G.a.b.a.b

[nsheldon]

Thread moved to "Sound libraries."

Regards,

Nathan Sheldon
http://www.nathansheldon.com/

[hglord]

I haven't played any pianos except the Coakley Perfect Piano Volume V since I got it. Coakley's Hamberg Steinway D feels like a Steinway concert grand in a way that the Ultimate, So True, and other Roland pianos don't. It has the depth and sustain of a BIG piano. It is also capable of going from very soft to very loud directly under your fingers - without using a volume pedal. When I'm playing softly, I can actually hear (well, I think I can, anyway) the threads on the surface of the hammers lightly hitting the strings. Depending upon your MIDI controller, you get a sound and control that doesn't exist in any of the Roland piano patches.

Harvey

[thunderkyss]

FantomX, SRX-11, So true, and Coakley's Perfect piano are all on PurgatoryCreek

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[dkpcola]

They don't have SRX11 demo MP3.
I think I will post that demo using same old Midi file.

[psionic11]

Thanks all for the replies. Can't get a weighted keyboard right now, which is why I was looking for subjective opinions between the SRX-11 and Coakley's pianos.

Thunder, that listing at Purgatory Creek was perfect. Even tho they are all in mp3 format, which of course is going to degrade much of that exact area I'm looking to distinguish different pianos from (upper-mid and higher overtone interplays), it is an excellent resource to A/B the different pianos, esp since they all use the same song/midi file.

I feel much more educated and can pinpoint what I want and don't want now:

Besides obvious insufficient velocity-switching, which is a big expressive no-no, mic placement make a huge difference in the intimacy of the piano. Some pianos give the impression of being listened to from about 6 feet away in a carpeted room. Others are so close-up that the hammers and the original piano's enclosure come to the forefront of the sound's character.

The Faziolis have a nice 'woody' character, and the Bosendorf has a nice sonic spectrum, but it is the Steinways which are most pleasing to me - a bit more fruity and sonorous, rich and sensitive.

The SRX-11 (Roland Ultimate Piano) aren't too bad at all. The earlier Roland models, including the XV "Nice Piano", which I'm assuming is the same as the Xa "So True", is a nice attempt, capturing a good portion of the attack. But again, the veloctiy-switching becomes apparent, and the lack of a rich, expressive sustain throws me to the "synth piano" area, and detracts from realism.

The Coakley pianos are definitely very good. They are very intimate and close-up, if a bit overbearing on the hammer action. Still, the song/midi file gets to shine thru in expressiveness, letting you get into the music without the sound suspending your disbelief that it is not a real piano being played. The sound itself on the Steinways are rich and fruity, dynamically expressive. Sustain is very good. The stereo spread is ok, and the patch is a little strong, but those are minor details that can be worked in patch refining and post-processing.

I feel much more educated now that I had the chance to compare the pianos side-by-side. I even liked the GigaPiano too for many of the same reasons as Coakley's pianos, but I want a hardware solution. Down the road I may invest in a weighted keyboard, but I am more a piano player than a pianist, just with a good (maybe picky) ear.

I still am wondering though, if PC card load times will be an issue, or maybe I could selectively download certain Coakley patches into expanded user memory? I saw an SRX-11 for $150 on e-bay, but I would have to take out my Ultimate Keys SRX-07 =( to use that. Grrr, dang indecisiveness, lol.

[psionic11]

Oh yeah, what is up with that Triton Acoustic piano?!!! I almost jumped back in my seat as soon as it played. I was in this quiet mindset listening to the subtle differences between downloaded samples, and then BAM!
It is way too trebly, almost harshly bright, and it sounds like they EQ'd with that over-popular "smiley face" graphic EQ curve --- boost the bass, cut the mids, and boost the treble.

There is a LOT of sustain in lower regions, but something is not right, even disregarding how overbearingly "sustainy" it is. It's almost like they used a mic directly connected to the piano's wood, and it picked up most of the sine-tone sustain, but lost out on any of the note's upper registers. It might be big-bottomed and bright for stagework, I'm thinking a rock band at a small, noisy venue, but as for anything classical, world, jazzy, or solo, it is a bull in a china shop.

Nevermind if it is a Steinway or Kawai or Bosendorf or Fazioli... it's original sound is so processed that is has become its own "synth piano" sound. I truly question anyone who claims to like the Triton piano for its realism.

[dkpcola]

Regarding acoustic piano....
Digitals simply can not emulate 100% of pure acoustic instrumnet and it never will.
ALL hardware as well as software pianos suffer all the defects you mentioned above.
What you hear from the demos doesn't really translate into the one you really gonna enjoy playing. You may need to 'test drive' as many as you can and choose the one you like most. Digitals have their own advantages too.

[psionic11]

Aye, true, nothing beats the real deal. ALL the pianos above are digital, but a few better approximate the real deal much better than others. I really wish I could test-drive the piano I want first, but there is no way to do that with SRX-11 cards or the Coakley piano. Coakley has stated he will not offer a demo piano, and the local music stores in Orlando unbelivably do not have an SRX-11 in their keyboards.

All I have to go off of are the mp3 demos....

EDIT: And this forum's welcome advice =)

[thunderkyss]

........and that's a lot of freakin pianos on that sight. theoretically, the mp3 conversion has hampered all those samples equally, so they're kinda on even footing. I wouldn't suggest anyone purchase any of these instruments based solely on purgatory creek, but I do believe the information there is enough to assist the would be buyer in narrowing their decision.

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[MarkShovel]

1) Ultimate Grand is on the Fantom X not SRX-11
2) The web site said that they add reverb to patches, so you don't know what was in the original source.
3) The web site said both 128kbps and 192kbps MP3 files, I'll have to check the ones I downloaded. This could sway some of the results.
4) My wife heard "The Real Thing - Steinway B " and said that's obviously a real piano. This comment came with no discussion other than I was listening to different piano samples.

Assuming "The Real Thing - Steinway B " is a real piano. I think I hear a sympathetic vibration of the ringing strings from the new notest that get hit. It?s like a very musical reverb.

The other interesting comparison is how much stereo seperation exists in some patches like Ultimate Grand. It has a very clear stereo image.

Some of the Coakley samples seem to have a less defined stereo image. I almost get the impression that the stereo image wanders back and forth. (The intro part sweeps across the keyboard.) Don't take this as a negative summary on Coakley, I'm really starting to like the Coakley samples.

I have to assume that the Coakley samples are not the latest volume 5 release. It is not clear what vintage of Coakely is represented. It looks like the samples are from volume 1 and volume 2. I also have to assume that the Volume 5 Coakely is the best of his work to date.