Is it possible for Roland to say something without saying it

[Dan Krisher]

Here's how I produce stuff in the "G":

I know how it works, I know what's in there and I know what is not in there. And use what it has and what it doesn't have to my benefit and to my creativity. It's from coming from the MPC school. You learn to use the tools you have creatively and not spin your wheels wishing you had something that isn't there in the machine. I like to work on a workstation like a Fantom and MV because it has limits. I need limits as a creative person. Plus, if you've watched my videos you know that I've said that I like to work between the Fantom and a computer, to have the best of both worlds.

Now if I need to do a commercial jingle with 100 different audio drops, cuts, effects, etc. I'm not going to do that in the Fantom. It's not made to be WaveLab or Peak. I'm going to use the appropriate professional tools.

Now, that doesn't mean I'm not hip to what everyone wants to see added and fixed in the machine. I know. I know.

On another note, I don't agree with certain comments about our customer service. The issue of release updates as the benchmark of our entire customer paradigm is unacceptable to me. Especially given the huge amount of outreach we do through the US website and beyond, I simply won't let the US division take that bullet. It would do a world of good to separate the issues of updates from the overall perception of the company. At least the division I work for in the US.

I wasn't thrilled spending $699 for the first iPhone and waiting a year and half for Apple to release version 2.0. But, I never once waivered from loyalty of Apple and the feeling that it has the best support and human support of computer hardware manufacturers.

[The Audacity Works]

Yeah, "customer service" is a nebulous term as well. To me, customer service are the guys who fix an error when the wrong part's shipped to me. Technical support are the guys who explain that no, the BNC input cannot clock to higher sampler rates and that's why I'm getting pops and clicks. Marketing people are those who do research and figure out what customers want. And engineers are those who figure out how to pull off marketing's requests within technological and budgetary restraints.

Don't know how or if that applies to Roland here in the states, but yeah, it's not like Dan shows up here, reads the posts and says "Oh! Hmm, I had no idea there were missing features and bugs in the Fantom G! Golly, let me call my buddy in Japan and demand they release an update this week!"

[Quinnx.]

Dan..
Your argument is sound if your buying a fantom for the 1st time..

however, anyone coming from the X can clearly see the G though touted as the most advanced workstation ever is in important departments lacking what was already on the NOT so advanced X workstation.

The sequencer editing has no copy paste on a basic level
SMF support is not there
no more rps on keys
and there is more..

we all came from the x UPTO the G only to find we where downgrading in a lot of areas from the x..

Its no good giving us the sales pitch since we already purchased the g and know what it can and CANNOT do.
and were not stupid enough not to recognize that the G was not! ready for its release with the current state of the OS.
to try to tell us otherwise is and insult.

we know what we want and roland knows what missing.
but what its not telling us is if we can expect the G to be brought up to the level on the X or not..
By rolands silence on the matter im saying it indicates lack of interest from roland and indicates we will not see major advancements in the OS far from what we already have except to see SMF added which should have been there from the beginning..

The next release will be the tell on how dedicated roland is.
if there are just 1 or 2 additions or changes, it will indicate that its time for people to either stick with the G or move on very quickly before its too late.
Because its going to be another 3 year saga of little support or development before we see roland touting its next half finished workstation and leaving the G behind unfinished.

[jessej]

I totally agree with everyone lol.. Specially with what Dan and Quinnx here said..

I too came from the MPC school (I've had 3 of those) to the Fantom.. I just skipped buying the Fantom X, because I didn't see the benefit 'upgrading' to X from MPC.. However, I sold my MPC and a few synths to switch to the Fantom G because all it offers.

I agree totally that when one does editing jobs, the Fantom G is not the tool for it, that's why I have logic, (and we also have ProTools HD and Cubase 4 at the commerical studios I work at) but I think rudimentary things like fade in and fade out ABSOLUTELY belong on the Fantom G. I also ABSOLUTELY think those rudimentary things belong in a 1.0000 release, if not then they should be included in a 1.10 release. If not, then in a 1.11 release a week later. If not, then the company should explain, why we have to go buy a mac and logic (1400€) just to do a fade out on their 'fully fledged modern flagship'.

I really hate to be someone that has to complain about stuff, because I love the Fantom G. It is truly a nice piece of gear, but I feel it has a lot of rough corners and I hate to see it getting a bad rep (from me) because of some Roland (Japan) policy.

I don't think I am inpatient, all I want is that Roland Japan would work faster and get their things done so I can work faster and get my things done.

The next release is truly the dealbreaker for me too. If it does not satisfy me, then I will just sell my Fantom G and end the 25 year relationship I had with Roland. That would truly be sad.

Right now I have the vibe that Roland (Japan) has lied and cheated on their customers by not releasing the long overdue update/fix. Lied as in 'fully fledged' and 'flagship' and cheated as in instead of taking care of their existing 'flagship' customers, put their development teams working on new gear like that USB Studio Whale they just released with Sonar and left us out in the cold. On top of that, I have a feeling they also totally forgotten about us.

These things have nothing to do with great guys like Dan Krisher & Co, and these things have nothing to do how the Fantom G sounds. These things has to do with Roland Japan. I don't think there is really anyone who is being an asshole, there's just a problem that needs to be fixed.

[madAhorn]

Yes, Yes and Yes....but....

I have a gut feeling we will see nothing this year because Roland will want to do a second roll out at Winter Namm with version 2.0 with a bunch of bells and whistles and very few fixes.

I hope this is not the case, but as Indiana Jones said...
"I have a bad feeling about this"

If they surprise us and fix most every thing we want before the holidays, we will all shut up and the forum will go out of business.

[aster]

Dan, what about Roland customer Service in the rest of the world....it is very average... Apart from the UK, for the rest of Europe Customer Service is almost non-existant..... Lucky for me I watch your VIDS and use this forum...otherwise I would be totally lost on some of the G functionality...

[Artemiy]

Please don't blame Roland Japan if you can't get support from your distributor, because it's almost completely up to the locals to develop a good level of support.

Audacity:

As I recall the S2 was 32-voice, or only the S2 Turbo?

Dan:

I need limits as a creative person.

You are speaking the truth, my friend! That is EXACTLY how one develops great skills - having limitations that make you think creatively and break out of them.

In fact, I feel much more capable with the "limited" Fantom-G than with all the "unlimited" tools I have on my Mac.

[Diametro]

There is truth in that; definitely ... It's a central theme in the production of art ...

But Roland is a business and they really need to step it up on basic things like audio track and other forms of sequencer/synth/effect automation ... I don't use Logic to do much other than to record tracks do I do use the volume, panning, EQ and other automations up the ying yang ... That kind of control is vital to sound sculpting and should be on the Fantom G on many, many levels ... (If it doesn't arrive in an update, I will never own one ... )

Limitations are one thing; shackles are another ...

I'm not going to pay $3,000 for 50 lb. manacles ...

[The Audacity Works]

Artemiy:

As I recall the S2 was 32-voice, or only the S2 Turbo?

Actually, we're both kinda right. The Turbo kit added special new patches that used scaled-down tones, and therefore, 32-note polyphony was attainable. However, if you used the stock patches (or had the pre-Turbo version), you're running at 16.

Can't remember if it was a simultaneous tones thing or not—If I remember correctly, there was no way to strip the patches down to get 32 notes without utilizing the new Turbo patches exclusively (which, of course, didn't sound as good).

Man, I loved that synth.

[Artemiy]

I used to own their CD-30 and WK-3 synths in the past, they were pretty interesting machines indeed!

[AK-Jake]

Dan K, it's great to have you on the boards. Thank you for your presence...it makes me feel a little more comfy about Roland and like they're trying to either fix or reverse the bad image they've gained in the Customer Support arena.

My biggest gripe about my G8 (my first Roland workstation...I never purchased an X) is the "weakness" of the soundset. Don't get me wrong: there are TONS of great sounds in there, and those sounds I use daily. However, too many of the presets in my G8 feel as though they were rushed, and don't have the polish of traditional Roland patches. It feels as though the G8 is filled with 128 megs of great sounds and the rest cheap filler (like most CD's you buy, ha!) Due to this, my G8 is NOT the synth I can go to whenever I "need a sound now"...my old Korg Triton Extreme is, even more so than my Motif XS. All of my gripes about the Fantom G have been addressed by Roland and my learning how to use my G8. If the rumored soundset upgrade is truly in the works, I have a sneaking suspicion that THAT, coupled with some new ARX boards will solve all my gripes completely.

And NO, I'm not a studio guy, I'm a live-player in a band.

Just get us some better pianos! We don't need 75 variations of 15 pianos. Give us 75 variations of 50 pianos!!! Not to mention better brass falls!

That's my only gripe I have left. Once that's fixed, anything else will be icing on the cake.

SH1000-

To address your question to Artemiy from the bottom of the first page, Art and I have plenty of experience in NDA's and working with companies. I work extensively with THE major player in the video editing/post-production manufacturer out there (the one whose products make just about EVERY movie/TV show/commercial in the US, as well as around the world). I've been a beta-tester and forum moderator for them for years. Rarely do I get much from them for my services, however I do get something in return:

1) I get to see what the new products are 6 months before the rest of the world
2) I get to TEST DRIVE and DIRECTLY CONTRIBUTE to the final design of those products, as well as what features get included
3) I get deep discounts on purchasing the product at the end of the beta-cycle/beginning of commercial shipment
4) I get direct access to the design/engineering team to voice my concerns and wishlist
5) I even occasionally get "swag" (hats, t-shirts, bookbags, etc.)

So think about it: if you had the chance to test drive the G8 last Winter BEFORE it was announced at NAMM, as well as during the 4 months between its announcement and its ship date to see what it featured and what it lacked, while also having the chance to go straight to the Roland engineers and go, "Hey! Where's this and that!?"...wouldn't you? Even if you were doing it on your own time and you weren't sure you were planning on upgrading?

Take care.

[howardS]

I am going pose a question here: Is it Roland's job to teach us how to use their gear in the recording or performance workflow?

Aster suggested earlier on this thread that "Europe Customer Service is almost non-existent..... Lucky for me I watch your VIDS and use this forum...otherwise I would be totally lost on some of the G functionality". I have seen this sentiment on other threads but I am not convinced it is Roland's job to do this otherwise they will have failed to provide good Customer Service. I don't agree with this. I am thankful that Roland has so many demos on their various sites and I appreciate all the instructional videos put out by people on the Roland team but I think that for me is above and beyond the usual standard of service. When I last purchased my car I did not receive driving lessons nor any tutorials on the features on that car. It was up to me to figure it all out.

For me, customer service has to do with their response to fixing broken products. No one appears to be complaining about the hardware build quality, just about the software bugs and missing features (also software related). It does take time to roll out new versions of software although I wish it were faster. Obviously, they couldn't get it done in time for the initial release despite their best efforts. Those of you who bought the G knew you were getting it in an "almost finished" condition. No promises were made about when any software would be released and yet a big fix came out 1 month or so after the initial release. I do not feel misled by them and really don't feel that we need to complain about their lack of response to our complaints in their software. That said, keep telling them if you find a bug or missing feature. It is good to share that information with them. I just don't think complaining about so called lack of Customer Service is the answer.

If you are not happy then do what I have done and what others have done. Don't purchase it if it doesnt suit you or return it and buy it again once they have a more mature software release.

[aster]

Art .. Let's not forget Roland chooses the distributer ? Not me so they do have some responsibility .. Howard ... It all depends on if you assume the fantom g is for newbies, novices, hobbiesta or only for, pros. All different people buy the fantom g customer service should be tailored accordingly ..

[superchris]

Sorry im not jumping on the bandwagon and riding Dan's nuts. Dont call your product a "workstation" if it doesnt meet the criteria. "we need limitations"??? Im sorry but i dont need someone to tell me what limitations i need especially when one of them is copy and paste. Bottom line, roland released a half baked product and the consumers are pissed. Stop trying to defend them because its like trying to defend Bush.......I really dont care how you make musicl, that has nothing to do with the consumers and what they want. So get off your high horse and look at this from another perspective.

[The Audacity Works]

superchris:

Stop trying to defend them because its like trying to defend Bush...

Wow...

There's a disproportionate amount of douchebag content in that post.

It's the exact reason why so many manufacturers avoid online forums.