I just picked up SRX-11 at Guitar Center's weekly "Once a Year" sale for $199. Couldn't pass it up.
Anyway, after installing it in my XV-5080 (sorry, not a Fantom owner), I played some of the so-called 'trouble' keys in patches that were mentioned in previous posts. I couldn't notice anything out of the unusual.
HOWEVER, what I did notice was that middle 'C' has a definite artifact of some kind in it. When played at anything above pianissimo, you can hear something that sounds almost like a loose string vibrating against wood. It is present in every just about every patch I've tried to far. I haven't edited any of the patches to see if different waveforms react differently.
Maybe this is supposed to be there to represent the "realism" of the particular piano sampled? I don't know, but it's very distracting. Has anyone else heard this?
I've looked at most of the SRX-11 related posts in this forum and haven't seen anything so far on the middle C issue, so I apologize in advance if it's been mentioned before.
Jeff in Boston
Another SRX-11 artifact?
Re: Another SRX-11 artifact?
Have you tested your ordinary sounds ( non SRX-11 ) for the same artifact? Your description of the problem makes me think this sounds like a resonance effect in your speaker cabinet or something similar. Tried moving your speakers? Tried using headphones? Try a few alternatives before concluding it is the SRX's fault.
F-X7 User
F-X7 User
I'm just going to repost my last item on this issue:
It's my informed opinion that analyzing pianos will eventually drive you stark raving mad if you let it.
I am basing this on my experience with real pianos. I managed a full-line music store which sold (among other things) acoustic pianos - grands, uprights and spinets - from Yamaha, Baldwin and Kawai, and employed 3 fulltime piano tuner/technicians.
Every single one of them (despite being a very skilled technician) was a complete raving lunatic.
If you study the nature of a piano's physical design ... the interaction of keys, hammers, 3 strings per key, harp, soundboard, pegboard, cabinetry and the environment in which the piano "lives"... you come to the opinion that there is always going to be something out-of-whack at any given moment, and different things out-of-whack from moment-to-moment.
What "saves" most players from perceiving these moment-to-moment imperfections is that they are "aperiodic", meaning that they do not repeat themselves or they occur at completely random intervals.
So, you get a top-of-the-line 9-foot grand, have it serviced and tuned by a top-class technician, sit down and play. At some point in time - if you are listening critically - you will notice something "off". then you try to find that "off bit" and duplicate it. You can't. Then you start playing and notice it again. You start hitting one note at a time at various velocities. Then on one key you notice something else odd, only to find that you can't reproduce it after a half hour on plunking away on that single key.
So you start to play again, and then you hear a new problem different from the earlier 2. But you aren't able to reproduce it either. But suddenly - in the middle of trying to reproduce the 3rd problem - you hear something else.
All of this is happening on a real, top-quality acoustic instrument that has been well tuned and serviced, and is free from any physical defects.
This happens with every acoustic piano ever made, and it's why pianos tuners go crazy.
The reason why every sampled piano ever created suffers from multiple reports of "this piano sucks" is because the process of sampling captures a moment in time for that specific key/velocity. Capturing 4 samples-per-key captures 4 such moments-in-time.
The process of creating a good-quality sampled piano is full of the same kinds of little bits of madness encountered by piano tuners, and they are perfectly captured for all time. Attempts to completely eliminate them usually end up sounding lifeless and lacking character.
The only way to create a sampled piano with all the craziness, life and character is to create one with all of that randomish, "aperiodic imperfection". Such an undertaking would probably require a minimum of 8 distinct samples for one each of 8 velocity levels for each key. You''d then have to put together some fancy techniques for having the 8 samples at each velocity levels trigger in semi-random fashion with repeated key presses. I can't imagine undertaking such a project without going just as batty as the average piano tuner!
Of course there is the "pure math" option: acoustic modeling. Several mathematicians have gone looney trying to put together accurate mathematical models of acoustic pianos.
So, my advice would be to get whatever you like best. Try not to listen toooo closely, and have a good time.
'Cuz ... pianos? They're crazy man, crazy.
I am basing this on my experience with real pianos. I managed a full-line music store which sold (among other things) acoustic pianos - grands, uprights and spinets - from Yamaha, Baldwin and Kawai, and employed 3 fulltime piano tuner/technicians.
Every single one of them (despite being a very skilled technician) was a complete raving lunatic.
If you study the nature of a piano's physical design ... the interaction of keys, hammers, 3 strings per key, harp, soundboard, pegboard, cabinetry and the environment in which the piano "lives"... you come to the opinion that there is always going to be something out-of-whack at any given moment, and different things out-of-whack from moment-to-moment.
What "saves" most players from perceiving these moment-to-moment imperfections is that they are "aperiodic", meaning that they do not repeat themselves or they occur at completely random intervals.
So, you get a top-of-the-line 9-foot grand, have it serviced and tuned by a top-class technician, sit down and play. At some point in time - if you are listening critically - you will notice something "off". then you try to find that "off bit" and duplicate it. You can't. Then you start playing and notice it again. You start hitting one note at a time at various velocities. Then on one key you notice something else odd, only to find that you can't reproduce it after a half hour on plunking away on that single key.
So you start to play again, and then you hear a new problem different from the earlier 2. But you aren't able to reproduce it either. But suddenly - in the middle of trying to reproduce the 3rd problem - you hear something else.
All of this is happening on a real, top-quality acoustic instrument that has been well tuned and serviced, and is free from any physical defects.
This happens with every acoustic piano ever made, and it's why pianos tuners go crazy.
The reason why every sampled piano ever created suffers from multiple reports of "this piano sucks" is because the process of sampling captures a moment in time for that specific key/velocity. Capturing 4 samples-per-key captures 4 such moments-in-time.
The process of creating a good-quality sampled piano is full of the same kinds of little bits of madness encountered by piano tuners, and they are perfectly captured for all time. Attempts to completely eliminate them usually end up sounding lifeless and lacking character.
The only way to create a sampled piano with all the craziness, life and character is to create one with all of that randomish, "aperiodic imperfection". Such an undertaking would probably require a minimum of 8 distinct samples for one each of 8 velocity levels for each key. You''d then have to put together some fancy techniques for having the 8 samples at each velocity levels trigger in semi-random fashion with repeated key presses. I can't imagine undertaking such a project without going just as batty as the average piano tuner!
Of course there is the "pure math" option: acoustic modeling. Several mathematicians have gone looney trying to put together accurate mathematical models of acoustic pianos.
So, my advice would be to get whatever you like best. Try not to listen toooo closely, and have a good time.
'Cuz ... pianos? They're crazy man, crazy.
Yes, I have
I am listening on headphones. That's the only thing I listen to. The artifact is not there on my SRX-02 piano card or any other card or stock sound.
If I listen a little more closely, I actually hear a "bit" of the "ring" on the b before middle C. Which makes me think that this is actually a characteristic of whatever piano they used to sample it with. Almost as if there was kind of a harmonic resonation spot on that particular string pairing.
Oh well--it's not distracting enough to make me want to return it at this point.
Jeff
If I listen a little more closely, I actually hear a "bit" of the "ring" on the b before middle C. Which makes me think that this is actually a characteristic of whatever piano they used to sample it with. Almost as if there was kind of a harmonic resonation spot on that particular string pairing.
Oh well--it's not distracting enough to make me want to return it at this point.
Jeff
Re: Another SRX-11 artifact?
Dan, while I agree with you in principle, the fact remains that the problem (if you want to call it a problem; maybe it isn't a problem) is noticeable with SRX-11 in a way that it isn't with SRX-02. Or the stock XV sounds. Perhaps even the stock Fantom pianos (I don't know, I don't have a Fantom).
The point is, that while recording samples is a labor-intensive process, you would think that the Roland QA person assigned to TEST the card in every situation would have stumbled onto this artifact. It's not like it's an obscure key; it's middle C, for god sake.
Now, for all I know maybe it was the intention of the Roland SRX-11 team to create not the "perfect" piano. Maybe their definition of a "Complete Piano" IS one that does have all the idiosyncracies of a "real" piano, including some of those "crazy" artifacts.
Jeff
The point is, that while recording samples is a labor-intensive process, you would think that the Roland QA person assigned to TEST the card in every situation would have stumbled onto this artifact. It's not like it's an obscure key; it's middle C, for god sake.
Now, for all I know maybe it was the intention of the Roland SRX-11 team to create not the "perfect" piano. Maybe their definition of a "Complete Piano" IS one that does have all the idiosyncracies of a "real" piano, including some of those "crazy" artifacts.
Jeff
Re: Another SRX-11 artifact?
Jeff,
You're absolutely right. The middle C has a ringing character that only it has. I find it just like you described.
I've heard these type of keys on some real pianos, and it definitely gives the SRX11 an element of realism. Although if I had a key like that on my piano, I'd probably get it fixed.
I've been gigging regularly ith the SRX11 for a while now, and do alot of piano work. Most times when I play the middle C by itself or in any type of chord, it gets my attention. Sometimes even distracts me from what I'm playing. It's there.
Would I get rid of it if I could? Yes. But, in some ways it adds realism, and for me I still like the card enough to keep it. But I agree with you, the note stands out.
Also, I've played the RD700SX and it's there too.
On a side note, the velocity switching in the RD700SX is alot smoother. I've modified the SRX11 patches and mine plays alot better than stock, but I'm still working on it. Sometimes I get little ff surprises when I play a ballad - can be annoying.
It's a good sounding card, but not perfect. But what is, I guess.
bb
You're absolutely right. The middle C has a ringing character that only it has. I find it just like you described.
I've heard these type of keys on some real pianos, and it definitely gives the SRX11 an element of realism. Although if I had a key like that on my piano, I'd probably get it fixed.
I've been gigging regularly ith the SRX11 for a while now, and do alot of piano work. Most times when I play the middle C by itself or in any type of chord, it gets my attention. Sometimes even distracts me from what I'm playing. It's there.
Would I get rid of it if I could? Yes. But, in some ways it adds realism, and for me I still like the card enough to keep it. But I agree with you, the note stands out.
Also, I've played the RD700SX and it's there too.
On a side note, the velocity switching in the RD700SX is alot smoother. I've modified the SRX11 patches and mine plays alot better than stock, but I'm still working on it. Sometimes I get little ff surprises when I play a ballad - can be annoying.
It's a good sounding card, but not perfect. But what is, I guess.
bb
Re: Another SRX-11 artifact?
All those so called "noises" are from the real instrument and they can never be eliminated in any form of digital pianos(hardware or software). I did a lot of samples browsing of many piano wave forms from software piano libraries. ALL of them have some kind of artifact noises. One piano tuner said... real piano can not be sound artifact free.. if someone attempt it, end result is horrible sounding piano with a lot of out of tune keys. Original instrument seems to be a factor too. Steinway Grands sounds seem to have very complex harmonics and overtones compared to the one like Yamaha.