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Roland Customer Relationship
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piaknowguy
- Posts: 2071
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thextreme1
- Posts: 204
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Re: Roland Customer Relationship
Being a former G owner, now on the outside looking in... I see it this way:
Roland had a lot of great ideas with the G, but didnt think them out through the mind of a musician... all they needed to do with their sequencer, is look no further than Cakewalk or Pro Tools. Mimic what people are already using... and youd be set.
As others say, quit trying to reinvent the wheel with every iteration of your product... just build upon what you already have with ideas from your users. Make them happy and you have customers for life... disappoint them... and you make them someone elses customers for life.
As far as Dan is concerned... He was my last straw and made up my mind to sell, while I could still get top dollar for a used unit. His silence to my emails(about product functions that werent answered in his videos)... was proof enough that Roland had moved on.If not, he made it clear that support for the product had.
His lack of the initial excitement he showed me in answering prior emails, sealed the coffin.
Want to see how support is really done? Head on over to Open Labs forums. These guys fall head over heals in answering any question. Hell, the owner of the company gave me his cell number to call him with any questions. We are already in talks to make me a sponsored artist. I dont even have my keyboard yet!
Support like that, really takes the sting out of the initial $5500 price tag(would have been $7000 without Musicians Friend awesome black Friday sale). On top of that... I am getting everything Ive always wanted in a keyboard and studio... in one package... that is upgradable, both in hardware and software... for the life of the product... using any piece of software that runs in windows.
Roland could take a lot away from Open Labs way of doing business. Keeping musicians at the forefront of product development. Giving them what they want and need. Keeping them so happy that the thought of straying elsewhere never enters their mind.
Again, I like what Roland had in mind... but follow through is everything in this business... and without it, you are sunk.
Roland had a lot of great ideas with the G, but didnt think them out through the mind of a musician... all they needed to do with their sequencer, is look no further than Cakewalk or Pro Tools. Mimic what people are already using... and youd be set.
As others say, quit trying to reinvent the wheel with every iteration of your product... just build upon what you already have with ideas from your users. Make them happy and you have customers for life... disappoint them... and you make them someone elses customers for life.
As far as Dan is concerned... He was my last straw and made up my mind to sell, while I could still get top dollar for a used unit. His silence to my emails(about product functions that werent answered in his videos)... was proof enough that Roland had moved on.If not, he made it clear that support for the product had.
His lack of the initial excitement he showed me in answering prior emails, sealed the coffin.
Want to see how support is really done? Head on over to Open Labs forums. These guys fall head over heals in answering any question. Hell, the owner of the company gave me his cell number to call him with any questions. We are already in talks to make me a sponsored artist. I dont even have my keyboard yet!
Support like that, really takes the sting out of the initial $5500 price tag(would have been $7000 without Musicians Friend awesome black Friday sale). On top of that... I am getting everything Ive always wanted in a keyboard and studio... in one package... that is upgradable, both in hardware and software... for the life of the product... using any piece of software that runs in windows.
Roland could take a lot away from Open Labs way of doing business. Keeping musicians at the forefront of product development. Giving them what they want and need. Keeping them so happy that the thought of straying elsewhere never enters their mind.
Again, I like what Roland had in mind... but follow through is everything in this business... and without it, you are sunk.
Re: Roland Customer Relationship
thextreme1,
I'm also a former Fantom G owner. Personally I just didn't feel the vibe with the G for the 1 year that I had it. I sold it and got a Motif.
This is not to knock the Fantom G at all, but I did think it was concerning that Roland support bailed on these forums. I never had to contact Dan myself, but he disappeared faster than the Mike O' Malley show. Then, Ed Diaz was making some tutorials on the Fantom G up on YouTube last summer. I was happy to see that at the time. Then he vanished only to later appear with Juno Gi videos. I appreciated his efforts, but it's obvious that the Fantom G is not in the cards anymore. At the time, I was on the fence about selling the G, but seeing the lack of support from Roland personnel helped me make my decision. I hope they realize that they are losing customers because of this.
I'm also a former Fantom G owner. Personally I just didn't feel the vibe with the G for the 1 year that I had it. I sold it and got a Motif.
This is not to knock the Fantom G at all, but I did think it was concerning that Roland support bailed on these forums. I never had to contact Dan myself, but he disappeared faster than the Mike O' Malley show. Then, Ed Diaz was making some tutorials on the Fantom G up on YouTube last summer. I was happy to see that at the time. Then he vanished only to later appear with Juno Gi videos. I appreciated his efforts, but it's obvious that the Fantom G is not in the cards anymore. At the time, I was on the fence about selling the G, but seeing the lack of support from Roland personnel helped me make my decision. I hope they realize that they are losing customers because of this.
Re: Roland Customer Relationship
I think that what the responses in this thread clearly show that there is a great need for Roland to be much more responsive to their customers.
The fact that Roland has simply sufficed with remaining notoriously absent and not addressing criticisms, wishes, questions, or rumours, only has added fuel to the fire of discontent, and they lost customers.
Showing your face as a company means that instead of an abstract logo customers get to know the people behind the logo explaining decisions and the difficulties/issues they face. It causes the FG users realize that there is a team behind the FG caring about the FG, and it helps establish a bond between Roland and the customers of Roland.
This is where Roland has failed, and they shoot themselves in the foot with it.
Maybe Roland's total absense here has another reason.
Sometimes when companies are considering a product to be end of line they simply retreat from the forum and do not bother to answer any questions anymore. I've seen this happen before, like with Yahama's Mlan development.
So, maybe Roland's absense simply means that they consider the Fantom G to be a done deal, and what we have now simply is not going to be any better.
If this conclusion is wrong, then I'm always open for correction by any Roland official of course.
At any rate, by remaining absent here Roland has missed an important opportunity to show the face behind the product.
The fact that Roland has simply sufficed with remaining notoriously absent and not addressing criticisms, wishes, questions, or rumours, only has added fuel to the fire of discontent, and they lost customers.
Showing your face as a company means that instead of an abstract logo customers get to know the people behind the logo explaining decisions and the difficulties/issues they face. It causes the FG users realize that there is a team behind the FG caring about the FG, and it helps establish a bond between Roland and the customers of Roland.
This is where Roland has failed, and they shoot themselves in the foot with it.
Maybe Roland's total absense here has another reason.
Sometimes when companies are considering a product to be end of line they simply retreat from the forum and do not bother to answer any questions anymore. I've seen this happen before, like with Yahama's Mlan development.
So, maybe Roland's absense simply means that they consider the Fantom G to be a done deal, and what we have now simply is not going to be any better.
If this conclusion is wrong, then I'm always open for correction by any Roland official of course.
At any rate, by remaining absent here Roland has missed an important opportunity to show the face behind the product.
Re: Roland Customer Relationship
Jan_nl
Like has been mentioned before, the Clan is not Roland supported. Roland is not forced to come here. You may ask for them to build their own forum. But you can't blame them for not beeing present at a private site.
As for the rest, I always feel weird when someone demands a company to come to a public place/site and talk about their products, product developments or give any kind of explanation about it. I know some do but I wonder how efficient can that be sometimes. Just my oppinion.
Like has been mentioned before, the Clan is not Roland supported. Roland is not forced to come here. You may ask for them to build their own forum. But you can't blame them for not beeing present at a private site.
As for the rest, I always feel weird when someone demands a company to come to a public place/site and talk about their products, product developments or give any kind of explanation about it. I know some do but I wonder how efficient can that be sometimes. Just my oppinion.
Re: Roland Customer Relationship
V-Ceeoh, with my comment I did not imply that you or any other moderator should ask any representative of Roland to be present here. I would feel very awkward about making such a demand to Roland also.
Roland should have established their presence here out of their own volition simply because they feel its desirable to keep in touch with the people who buy their products.
While it's true that this is a private forum, the same is true for the Korg forum.
Yet this fact did not keep Korg representatives from participating in that forum.
So, I see it as a missed opportunity from Roland's side that they remain so distant and uncommunicative.
But, as I said, perhaps it's simply because the FG will not be developed any further.
Roland should have established their presence here out of their own volition simply because they feel its desirable to keep in touch with the people who buy their products.
While it's true that this is a private forum, the same is true for the Korg forum.
Yet this fact did not keep Korg representatives from participating in that forum.
So, I see it as a missed opportunity from Roland's side that they remain so distant and uncommunicative.
But, as I said, perhaps it's simply because the FG will not be developed any further.
Re: Roland Customer Relationship
I don't wish it to personalise this to any individual Roland staff. Their non-participation in this forum is clearly a corporate decision, not an individual one.
It is a great pity, though. The argument that they don't participate because this is not an official Roland forum isn't much defence as they could easily establish such a forum if they wanted to do so. Indeed there is one, of sorts. Roland UK set up a forum here: http://www.rolandforums.co.uk. I don't think there's much staff involvement, though.
I used to own a Yamaha Motif Classic and the level of customer support provided in the Motifator forum was absolutely wonderful when compared with what we get from Roland. Yamaha product experts participated on a regular basis and clearly regarded it as a high priority to help users solve issues and develop their understanding. I received some very helpful advice from Yamaha staff there.
Moreover, whilst they didn't get into fights with complainants, Yamaha employees were prepared to engage with them, taking the time to explain things properly and also not being afraid to disagree with them. I remember grumbling that the official documentation for the Motif didn't go into enough detail on some issue or other and I got a polite but straight-talking reply from one of Yamaha's staff explaining why it would be unrealistic to expect the depth of instructions on particular applications that I had argued should be in the manuals. I thought about what the guy had written and I realised that he was absolutely right. He didn't chicken out, though, just because I was a complainant - he took the time to reply and put across a good argument, and he did that in public.
And I can tell you, that kind of attitude does rub off on the forum users. People feel more loyalty to a product, to a company, to employees with whom they feel there's some kind of relationship. It pays off in the positive attitude that other forum members adopt to helping each other out too. If a Yamaha employee answers a question, someone else will probably add another point that might be of interest. It's not competitive; it's mutual aid, co-operation.
I would add, though, I think you'll probably get a helpful response if you contact Roland technicians via your country's local Roland HQ. And an honest response too. If there are flaws or bugs, they're not afraid to admit it. Only they clearly aren't encouraged to do that publicly. That's what I've found anyway.
--
Steve Cooke
http://soundcloud.com/stevecooke
http://www.facebook.com/thestevecooke
It is a great pity, though. The argument that they don't participate because this is not an official Roland forum isn't much defence as they could easily establish such a forum if they wanted to do so. Indeed there is one, of sorts. Roland UK set up a forum here: http://www.rolandforums.co.uk. I don't think there's much staff involvement, though.
I used to own a Yamaha Motif Classic and the level of customer support provided in the Motifator forum was absolutely wonderful when compared with what we get from Roland. Yamaha product experts participated on a regular basis and clearly regarded it as a high priority to help users solve issues and develop their understanding. I received some very helpful advice from Yamaha staff there.
Moreover, whilst they didn't get into fights with complainants, Yamaha employees were prepared to engage with them, taking the time to explain things properly and also not being afraid to disagree with them. I remember grumbling that the official documentation for the Motif didn't go into enough detail on some issue or other and I got a polite but straight-talking reply from one of Yamaha's staff explaining why it would be unrealistic to expect the depth of instructions on particular applications that I had argued should be in the manuals. I thought about what the guy had written and I realised that he was absolutely right. He didn't chicken out, though, just because I was a complainant - he took the time to reply and put across a good argument, and he did that in public.
And I can tell you, that kind of attitude does rub off on the forum users. People feel more loyalty to a product, to a company, to employees with whom they feel there's some kind of relationship. It pays off in the positive attitude that other forum members adopt to helping each other out too. If a Yamaha employee answers a question, someone else will probably add another point that might be of interest. It's not competitive; it's mutual aid, co-operation.
I would add, though, I think you'll probably get a helpful response if you contact Roland technicians via your country's local Roland HQ. And an honest response too. If there are flaws or bugs, they're not afraid to admit it. Only they clearly aren't encouraged to do that publicly. That's what I've found anyway.
--
Steve Cooke
http://soundcloud.com/stevecooke
http://www.facebook.com/thestevecooke
Re: Roland Customer Relationship
Hey people,
I mostly agree, to what I've read here. Your concerns are correct. It seems Roland moved on, maybe they concentrate the energy on a Fantom G successor.
It seems the Fantom G was an, I don't like to say experiment, I like more to say a new prototype, it seems an experimental prototype. A prototype where many things not have been thought over, and are not 100% perfect. As a prototype he came on the market. Still not finished. I've tested it, shortly after it has been released, and what should I say, in my comparison to Motif XS this time, much more better - however the OS freezes display, which means a crash, while I tested it. In any later updates it seemed to be fixed, because I never got a freeze again, after I bought my FG8 a year later. As I said, the Fantom G was released to early as an unfinished prototype in my feel. It was the force to put something on the market, what the Fantom X succeeds, which come into the years. Maybe this is now what the Fantom G is experiencing, nevertheless, the G is still not "ready" in my eyes...
But, maybe, and I hope that, Roland will learn from their errors, it is simply not good, to drop support for a computer-related instrument like the Fantom G, if so, so early, stated beside.
Seeing so much errors from outside indicates that the QM-Section at Roland should be reorganized. Sounds bad, is bad. It seems that the user-interaction in the web is really better at other factory's. This is a quality-indicator, too! It is very important that Roland keeps this in mind. They stand and fall with the users. However, maybe they do it better next time, when releasing the Fantom GT..
Best regards and greets to all here in the forum wishes
Tobias
I mostly agree, to what I've read here. Your concerns are correct. It seems Roland moved on, maybe they concentrate the energy on a Fantom G successor.
It seems the Fantom G was an, I don't like to say experiment, I like more to say a new prototype, it seems an experimental prototype. A prototype where many things not have been thought over, and are not 100% perfect. As a prototype he came on the market. Still not finished. I've tested it, shortly after it has been released, and what should I say, in my comparison to Motif XS this time, much more better - however the OS freezes display, which means a crash, while I tested it. In any later updates it seemed to be fixed, because I never got a freeze again, after I bought my FG8 a year later. As I said, the Fantom G was released to early as an unfinished prototype in my feel. It was the force to put something on the market, what the Fantom X succeeds, which come into the years. Maybe this is now what the Fantom G is experiencing, nevertheless, the G is still not "ready" in my eyes...
But, maybe, and I hope that, Roland will learn from their errors, it is simply not good, to drop support for a computer-related instrument like the Fantom G, if so, so early, stated beside.
Seeing so much errors from outside indicates that the QM-Section at Roland should be reorganized. Sounds bad, is bad. It seems that the user-interaction in the web is really better at other factory's. This is a quality-indicator, too! It is very important that Roland keeps this in mind. They stand and fall with the users. However, maybe they do it better next time, when releasing the Fantom GT..
Best regards and greets to all here in the forum wishes
Tobias
Re: Roland Customer Relationship
Well, after reading through these replies I guess I'll have too kiss 2.0 good bye. If Roland has not killed the FG, you guy's have certainly put a sword through it's heart over last few years from ranting.
I for one am keeping my FG7. even if it has problems, and no update comes.
Good luck to you all, and may your next keyboard produce the hit song you could not produce on the Fantom G.
I for one am keeping my FG7. even if it has problems, and no update comes.
Good luck to you all, and may your next keyboard produce the hit song you could not produce on the Fantom G.
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piaknowguy
- Posts: 2071
- Joined: 22:29, 14 April 2004
- Location: Canada
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Re: Roland Customer Relationship
"Good luck to you all, and may your next keyboard produce the hit song you could not produce on the Fantom G."
Nice rhetorical argument, but completely useless and out of topic.
A lot of FG users are just gigging musicians and they are not after producing the hit song. Just simply doing their job on stage. Making music is not only producing a new song but also performing a produced song. Besides that, can anybody tell me just one single hit song which was produced on a Fantom or Motif or on any other workstation in the last 5 years?
And after all, I thought that it was more or less clear that all those complains in the past years are mostly not about what it does, but HOW it does.
Will the next keyboard from Roland be able to read all my important and hardly created multisamples which I made in the last year? Or will I have to do the same job again. A fellow Roland user already had to do this job when he switched from the X to the G model. How stupid one must be to do the same job again because Roland is unable to create a proper file format for exporting/importing multisamples in the same way as patches?
Would you as a writer buy the next version of MS Word if you would know that it can't read all your document files you created in the years before?
It's not about producing hits. It's far more complicated than just using some rhetorical phrases. Not the users have killed the FG. That's simply an argumentative suicide. A company creates a product making a lot of things wrong from the start, they don't maintain the product, and now, the fault should be on the users side, because they fail to produce their hit song???
Give me a break.
I would say that more hit songs were produced just on a plain simple acoustic guitar than they will ever be produced on any workstation.
It's a tool. And we are talking about how it works. Not about what it can.
Nice rhetorical argument, but completely useless and out of topic.
A lot of FG users are just gigging musicians and they are not after producing the hit song. Just simply doing their job on stage. Making music is not only producing a new song but also performing a produced song. Besides that, can anybody tell me just one single hit song which was produced on a Fantom or Motif or on any other workstation in the last 5 years?
And after all, I thought that it was more or less clear that all those complains in the past years are mostly not about what it does, but HOW it does.
Will the next keyboard from Roland be able to read all my important and hardly created multisamples which I made in the last year? Or will I have to do the same job again. A fellow Roland user already had to do this job when he switched from the X to the G model. How stupid one must be to do the same job again because Roland is unable to create a proper file format for exporting/importing multisamples in the same way as patches?
Would you as a writer buy the next version of MS Word if you would know that it can't read all your document files you created in the years before?
It's not about producing hits. It's far more complicated than just using some rhetorical phrases. Not the users have killed the FG. That's simply an argumentative suicide. A company creates a product making a lot of things wrong from the start, they don't maintain the product, and now, the fault should be on the users side, because they fail to produce their hit song???
Give me a break.
I would say that more hit songs were produced just on a plain simple acoustic guitar than they will ever be produced on any workstation.
It's a tool. And we are talking about how it works. Not about what it can.
Re: Roland Customer Relationship
I don't think your statement is fair towards many FG users, Atlas.
It's the customers who have uttered criticism who have put a sword through the FG's heart?
Criticism on the FG is made by those who are commercial/musical faillures venting their frustration on the FG scapegoat?
Truth is that a lot of the criticism I have come across is made by users who went far beyond the stage of preset auditioning, and discovered areas where they felt that the FG could be improved in terms of workflow, intuitive operation, integration with software formats, etc.
And a lot of the criticism I agree with: these are areas where the FG could be improved and be made an even greater workstation.
It does not mean that with the FG in its current state no good music can be made, far from it!
But, there are areas where for instance the operation mode of the FG could be improved. You'll find this kind of criticism also on Korg's forum, or Yamaha's.
That kind of criticism is valuable for a Roland team working on the FG OS (assuming that there might still be a team or programmer dedicated to this task, which I doubt), and this is one of the reasons why I think customer interaction from Roland with the FG crowd is so valuable and important.
At the same time I have to conclude that this kind of interaction is non-existent, and perhaps that is part of the frustration with FG users who criticise the FG: they feel that Roland simply does not listen or care.
And THAT is very different with for instance Yamaha where there's a Yamaha team responding to Motif users.
It's the customers who have uttered criticism who have put a sword through the FG's heart?
Criticism on the FG is made by those who are commercial/musical faillures venting their frustration on the FG scapegoat?
Truth is that a lot of the criticism I have come across is made by users who went far beyond the stage of preset auditioning, and discovered areas where they felt that the FG could be improved in terms of workflow, intuitive operation, integration with software formats, etc.
And a lot of the criticism I agree with: these are areas where the FG could be improved and be made an even greater workstation.
It does not mean that with the FG in its current state no good music can be made, far from it!
But, there are areas where for instance the operation mode of the FG could be improved. You'll find this kind of criticism also on Korg's forum, or Yamaha's.
That kind of criticism is valuable for a Roland team working on the FG OS (assuming that there might still be a team or programmer dedicated to this task, which I doubt), and this is one of the reasons why I think customer interaction from Roland with the FG crowd is so valuable and important.
At the same time I have to conclude that this kind of interaction is non-existent, and perhaps that is part of the frustration with FG users who criticise the FG: they feel that Roland simply does not listen or care.
And THAT is very different with for instance Yamaha where there's a Yamaha team responding to Motif users.
Re: Roland Customer Relationship
the g is a great musical tool. it sounds great and has a lot of amazing features. but the bottom line is, it seriously lacks in a lot of areas, even some that have been better in older roland models. roland was and IS very lazy and downright rude to their customers in regards to their new current flagship workstation and thats before you realize the difference between the kind of support you can get for korg and yammy products. roland failed massively with this product, its too bad they still have cheerleaders to give them some type of sense that theyve done enough and have put out a fantastic product. ass kissers.
Re: Roland Customer Relationship
Seen all this before and see both sides of the argument as well.
The board does work. It doesn't work as I want it to in some aspects but I love it in others hence the reason it hasn't been sold.
Rolands communication skills are awful, you have 2 choices with them, either put up with it or don't buy from them anymore. Nothing we say here will change any of this and hasn't for the last 2 years.
As a side note I am saddened by this. I have been a Roland and Boss person for over 20 years and never felt this unhappy with a company's involvement . Even tho they lost me as a customer I really do hope they come around and still be the great innovator that I remember them for.
The board does work. It doesn't work as I want it to in some aspects but I love it in others hence the reason it hasn't been sold.
Rolands communication skills are awful, you have 2 choices with them, either put up with it or don't buy from them anymore. Nothing we say here will change any of this and hasn't for the last 2 years.
As a side note I am saddened by this. I have been a Roland and Boss person for over 20 years and never felt this unhappy with a company's involvement . Even tho they lost me as a customer I really do hope they come around and still be the great innovator that I remember them for.
Re: Roland Customer Relationship
@Flumpster
That's exactly my opinion too. Word for word.
I like my FG to for what it does, I learned to live with the shortcomings but if this is the last state of the FG, they have lost me as a customer too.
On the other side, after three years I hardly believe that something new will come on the software side or that they'll change their way of (not) maintaining their products.
That's exactly my opinion too. Word for word.
I like my FG to for what it does, I learned to live with the shortcomings but if this is the last state of the FG, they have lost me as a customer too.
On the other side, after three years I hardly believe that something new will come on the software side or that they'll change their way of (not) maintaining their products.