Another issue with Zones

[jazzmammal@gmail.com]

First, a tip for people who like using the Tone Wheel Organ function and don't like the missing 9th slider/drawbar. A real Hammond uses the 9th drawbar for percussion so a common trick is to pull that drawbar out where you like it and use the Percussion On/Off as a sort of patch change. Perc On, no 9th drawbar but Off and the drawbar sounds and below the screen on the Fantom are 6 buttons, the second from the right is the Perc On/Off when the Parameters screen is active. On to my zones issue.

It concerns the TWO. I have a Scene with 4 zones, Bass on 1, Organ on 2, EP on 3 and AP on 4. The Leslie does not work unless I highlight the organ on the screen but the Catch 22 is if any zone is highlighted on the screen then using the Zone Select buttons don't work. Meaning if, in the middle of a song while I'm playing organ I want to switch the organ off and switch to EP I have to first tap the screen to remove the highlight before the zone select buttons work then tap the zone 2 select button to turn the organ off and and another tap to turn the EP on. That's two taps too many when I'm playing bass. This to me completely voids the concept of simply switching to different sounds using the Zone Select buttons. Ed Diaz made it look so simple and obvious but he never mentions this little thing. Yes, Zone is set to Advanced. How is it possible that the mod controllers don't work without highlighting it manually on the screen? Sigh.

My history recently with keyboards that have these Gotcha's is infuriating. I was so excited about this board and Kraft had an open box for $1,500 with the $200 rebate and warranty. Not bad. Then two days of messing around and I have this issue. All the reading of online manuals or watching vids never mentions things like this.

[xp30]

It concerns the TWO. I have a Scene with 4 zones, Bass on 1, Organ on 2, EP on 3 and AP on 4. The Leslie does not work unless I highlight the organ on the screen but the Catch 22 is if any zone is highlighted on the screen then using the Zone Select buttons don't work. Meaning if, in the middle of a song while I'm playing organ I want to switch the organ off and switch to EP I have to first tap the screen to remove the highlight before the zone select buttons work then tap the zone 2 select button to turn the organ off and and another tap to turn the EP on. That's two taps too many when I'm playing bass. This to me completely voids the concept of simply switching to different sounds using the Zone Select buttons. Ed Diaz made it look so simple and obvious but he never mentions this little thing. Yes, Zone is set to Advanced. How is it possible that the mod controllers don't work without highlighting it manually on the screen? Sigh.

It is not quite clear to me what the problem is. Some notes:

You mentioned that the Leslie only works if zone 2 is selected. I assume you are talking about changing the rotary speed with the pitch bend lever. The pitch bend lever indeed only works if zone 2 is selected. However, there are other ways to change the rotary speed (e.g. pedal or S1/S2), which work regardless which zone is selected.

The 8 zone buttons can be used in Zone Select or Zone Switch mode. You mentioned "select", however, it sounds as if you are actually using "switch".

If you are using ADVANCED mode, then the selected zone will sound when it is switched on or when all 16 zones are switched off. This sounds a bit like the behavior that you are describing: If only zone 2 is switched on, and it is the selected zone, then it will keep sounding after switching it off. However, if you then switch on zone 1 (without selecting a different zone), then zone 1 should sound.

If you only play 1 zone at at time, then try switching all of them off, and using zone select to select the zone that should sound.

If you need to switch frequently between combinations of zones, then keyboard switch groups (one of the pad modes) might help.

[jazzmammal@gmail.com]

Thanks for replying. The issue comes when I'm playing bass. I got called for 3 gigs this weekend, I'm playing bass and the board was delivered 4 days ago so I'm under the gun and a bit overwhelmed. If I'm not playing bass most of this goes away. Also, this board is using OS v1.01 but I'm not updating it 4 days before these gigs. Maybe the latest update solves a few of these things?

What I expected is I have the 8 zone buttons, I hit them and the zones turn on and off, that simple and each zone works as far as modulation or rotary as they do in single tone mode. I'm calling this Zone Select because that's what it says on the panel? Where does it say Zone Switch? What is the difference between calling it Select or Switch? And I am in Advanced mode for the zones. We are getting hung up a bit with terminology. You said the pitch bend only works when zone 2 is selected. That implies the zone select button. I'm talking about highlighting zone 2 on the screen and when it's highlighted on the screen, you cannot turn it off using the zone select button which is my main problem. While playing I have to tap the screen to unhighlight it before I can hit the zone select button to turn the organ off then later I turn it back on but now it's not highlighed on the screen so the pitch bend no longer works for the rotary.

I figured out that the S1/2 buttons and probably the mod wheel will do the rotary but again, not what the vids show and not how it works in single tone mode. Of course none of the vids are demonstrating that exact scenario. The pitch bend is much larger, easier to hit when I'm playing bass and it's close to the same location as the half moon switch is on a real B3 and that is the single biggest thing that caught my attention watching Ed Diaz do it. Oh well. I'm going to try a second pedal for the rotary and see if that works.

To answer your other question yes, I do switch between several zones depending on the song. I may need to go between organ, piano, strings, clav, horns in different song sections. And for now at least, this is with me playing bass and yeah, it would be easier to double rack with a second board but I'm just not doing that any more.

Overall this is a very good keyboard I really like it, it's just these companies never explain exactly how all these things work in their promos and videos when it comes to live gigging situations. You have to buy it first and then figure it out on your own.

Thanks again for your help.

[xp30]

Thanks for replying. The issue comes when I'm playing bass. I got called for 3 gigs this weekend, I'm playing bass and the board was delivered 4 days ago so I'm under the gun and a bit overwhelmed. If I'm not playing bass most of this goes away. Also, this board is using OS v1.01 but I'm not updating it 4 days before these gigs. Maybe the latest update solves a few of these things?

What I expected is I have the 8 zone buttons, I hit them and the zones turn on and off, that simple and each zone works as far as modulation or rotary as they do in single tone mode. I'm calling this Zone Select because that's what it says on the panel? Where does it say Zone Switch? What is the difference between calling it Select or Switch? And I am in Advanced mode for the zones. We are getting hung up a bit with terminology.

This is more than just terminology. This is about understanding the basics of operating the keyboard. You mentioned Roland "promo" videos. It is not clear to me if you meant actual promotion videos, or the videos on the Roland support channel. The difference between zone select and zone switch is discussed in the first video in the Roland Fantom-0 playlist on the Roland support channel: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... dvBUypAOE9

I recommend reading the owner's manual, because it takes less time to learn the most important parts. The meaning of the 8 zone buttons and the one button labeled "zone select" are described on page 8, which could be described as the first page in the owner's manual with actual content.

If your expectation is to use a keyboard without reading any of the manuals, then the Fantom-0 is not a good investment. There are other options, for which this approach works better. For example, the Yamaha CK series.

My recommendation: Take some time to learn the basics of the Fantom-0. For your upcoming gigs, use the setup that you have used up until 4 days ago.

[jazzmammal@gmail.com]

When I said Roland promo videos yes, that includes the product support ones because Ed also works for Roland so he's not going to point out things to watch out for because they could trip you up on stage. I've not only watched them I've downloaded them into a folder on my desktop. And no there's nothing about key switching in Video 1, I just watched it again. I will admit though I haven't watched every minute of every one so maybe it's in one of them. Unfortunately you can't do a keyword search in a vid.

Ok, so now you've put me on good old RTFM train. Been there, done that. Here's the very detailed explanation of the zone select buttons on Page 8.

Controller
Explanation: Zone 9-16 button Unlit zone 1-8 Lit Zone 9-17

Next box

Zone Select buttons
Explanation: Select the zone you want to control (The current zone) The selected zone becomes the current zone. Gee, who knew?

And you do know there's three manuals, right? The Owners one, the Parameter one and the Reference one. I downloaded all of them before the board was even delivered plus I have the hard copy of the Owners when it was delivered. Do you know how to search a pdf? Ctrl F and type in the search box "key switch". Nothing comes up in any of the 3. However if you just use "Switch" a ton of things come up mostly irrelevant stuff like the power switch, foot switches etc but there are two in the Zone section. What is is you ask? From the Reference Manual, it says use the Zone buttons to Switch zones. In the Owners Manual it says the same wording explanation but uses, "to Select". Ok one uses the word Switch while the other uses Select. The next sentence it says use the Zone 9-16 button to Switch groups. That's it my friend. There is also nothing in the Tone Wheel Organ section about losing the pitch/bend if the organ isn't highlighted in Zone View.

And, nothing about if you unselected any Tone like Organ and it's not highlighted on the screen but other Tones are on, if you try to turn the organ on by highlighting on the screen (because I would like to use the pitch/bend for rotary), everything goes off but the organ. Bad move. That's something we just have to remember. What I just did before I saw your second reply was play a song that starts with Organ then turn it off using Zone Select played piano then put the organ back but I used the screen and not the Zone Select. A bit counterintuitive since all 4 tones are right there on the screen but whatever. It's just a visual cue of what you have set up, not for selection.

I still don't know what you mean by Key Switching. Is it something to do with grouping to put a Scene onto one of the pads?

Since I've been using musician forums for over 20 years, I've found it easier and faster to ask about these sorts of things AFTER I've done my due diligence first. I was hoping some other users would chime in but so far it's just you and me, bud. Don't worry, I WILL get there, just trying to shortcut it a little because of my schedule.

[pianoman41]

Keyboard Switch Groups should solve your problem. For any given Scene with all the Zones you use, set the Pad Mode to Kbd Sw Group (#7). You can then assign one or multiple Zones to be "active" at any given time and the others to be inactive to a specific pad. Do this for all of your Zones (assign a pad to each Zone as lead) and then you can quickly switch to each one (and have it selected) just by tapping the corresponding pad.

[xp30]

When I said Roland promo videos yes, that includes the product support ones because Ed also works for Roland so he's not going to point out things to watch out for because they could trip you up on stage. I've not only watched them I've downloaded them into a folder on my desktop. And no there's nothing about key switching in Video 1, I just watched it again. I will admit though I haven't watched every minute of every one so maybe it's in one of them. Unfortunately you can't do a keyword search in a vid.

I have never mentioned "key switching". I have mentioned "selecting zones", "switching zones" and "keyboard switch groups". The first video in the playlist covers the first two points, as does the owner's manual on page 8.

Ok, so now you've put me on good old RTFM train. Been there, done that. Here's the very detailed explanation of the zone select buttons on Page 8.

Controller
Explanation: Zone 9-16 button Unlit zone 1-8 Lit Zone 9-17

Next box

Zone Select buttons
Explanation: Select the zone you want to control (The current zone) The selected zone becomes the current zone. Gee, who knew?

First, the text is [ZONE SELECT] button. Singular, because there is only one such button. The text in brackets refers to the label on the front panel, and there is actually one button with the label ZONE SELECT. The button has an LED, and I assume that this LED is not lit in your case, which indicates that you are not using ZONE SELECT.

You are apparently pressing the ZONE INT/EXT buttons, which are described right below the part that you copied. And the text next to it describes that these buttons turn the zones on and off (switch), unless ZONE SELECT is on.

I mention again what I have mentioned in my first post: There are two simple ways to achieve what you want to achieve:

• Switching off all zones and using the zone select function.
• Using keyboard switch groups.

pianoman41 also mentioned keyboard switch groups. However, I should add: Keyboard switch groups are just a layer on top of zone switching and zone selecting. If you do not understand zone switching and zone selecting, then you will very likely run into similar issues with keyboard switch groups.

With that, I will stop responding to your posts, because you do not seem to pay attention to what I am writing, and your style of writing and interacting makes the information basically useless to others who might have similar questions.

[jazzmammal@gmail.com]

No, I'm not using the INT/EXT button, and Zone Select is NOT lit. You can't turn zones on/off while performing otherwise. Reread what I wrote about what happens if a Tone is highlighted on the screen and then you turn it off with the Zone button. It appears something is always highlighted on the screen so that's an issue when jumping around Zones with the buttons. Right now I'm highlighting the bass when I change scenes because for these gigs the bass is always on. IMO dropping the RTFM bomb in a user forum when someone says right up front they're under the gun and needs some help is poor forum etiquette and I'll react to it. Sorry if I offended anybody.

So it's "keyboard switch groups" instead of just "key switch". My bad I did miss that but it still doesn't make any difference at least not yet. I did CTRL F and searched all three manuals for that phrase. Nothing. I also looked at the Table of Contents and didn't see that phrase either. Doesn't mean it's not there, I just don't have time to do a deep dive right now.

Anyway, everybody is getting a break from my rambling (yes, I know stop cheering). I'm leaving tomorrow on business and then catching a boat on Friday morning to Catalina for the gigs. No more setting it up, what I have is what I have. I'll report back how it went next week and I'll have more time to work on this thing. I will say in spite of these few issues I'm really loving this new Roland. The sounds are really good I love the form factor and all the panel controls and I think the 76 keys synth action is also very good. I know some people are extremely picky about how an action feels but for me, I like it. It's definitely better than the FA06. I think Roland's ears were burning on that one.

Cheers.