Does anybody know why it is like it is and if this might be expanded in a software update?
Currently the looper only allows 60s of sample time for an entire project.
On the roland page it says: * Available total time for Looper Sample: Approx. 60 sec (44.1 kHz)
Stating sample in singular a a little ambiguous, but I don't really understand this limitation.
For example if I use one track for recording my 0-coast, after like 10 4 measure loops the memory is full and its done sampling, even if you just record one loop of 4 measures and use this 'same' loop/clip it will subtract from the looper time even if identical clips are copied around, so even with one loop, once copied to 10+ scenes you are done.. And this for a device that is based on this scene/clip style workflow I find this very odd.
The thing is for the user samples you have 12mono/6stereo minutes availabe. Why can't the looper just load samples from the SD without them consuming the 60s looper time like the drum tracks can? First thing I tried after recording was exporting the loop and then deleting the clip and reloading the sound from the exported wav instead, hoping this would clear the looper time but it doesn't.
So now I placed my loops as drum samples on a drum track which is obviously cumbersome and only works when you have the tempo in time with the tempo the sample was recorded on but its a workaround for now and it works, so obviously it is possible to read multiple loops from the SD so should it not be possible to have the looper read from SD as well instead of from its 60s memory?
Looper limitations
Re: Looper limitations
Samples don't get read from the SD so much as they get loaded into RAM and read from there.
You may notice projects that use samples have a larger size than projects that don't. This is because sample data is contained with the project itself.
Agreed, the looper functionality comes off as a bit of a poorly implemented after thought on Roland's part, but of issues that exist with the 707/101, the looper short comings are the one issue that's arguably fairly well covered publicly. I can't say I was that interested in the looper functionality, so it didn't play a big part on why I got the 707, BUT, I have experimented with it as part of familiarizing myself with general architecture capability. While not exactly a convenient practice, the best means of dealing with actively playing multiple loops in a project I found was simply to stay on top of deleting loops one was done playing with in order to clear the memory out for loading other loops; which deleting and loading loops can be done in real time without stopping play, though there is a bit of a screen delay on being able to browse through samples.
While the 707/101, like it's bigger sibling the Fantom, does hold a clip/scene workflow in sequencing, it's relations to things like Live (or even the older Yamaha SU700 sampler, where the clip/scene workflow originated) should stop there. It's primary focus as an instrument is on synthesis AND NOT sampling. If one is expecting an Ableton like phrase/loop sample based work flow, they're going to be MUCH better off with the Akais (most notably the Akai Force). However, where the Akai's prove stronger in the phrase/loop sample based work flow, their synthesis capabilities fall considerably short of the Zen engines. To similar order, there's many realtime performance sequencing capabilities the 707/101 carry that the Akai's lack; while the Akai's hold some stronger song sequencing capabilities.
Two rather different approaches that just happen to hold some commonality in how some of their approach to sequencing is conducted.
You may notice projects that use samples have a larger size than projects that don't. This is because sample data is contained with the project itself.
Agreed, the looper functionality comes off as a bit of a poorly implemented after thought on Roland's part, but of issues that exist with the 707/101, the looper short comings are the one issue that's arguably fairly well covered publicly. I can't say I was that interested in the looper functionality, so it didn't play a big part on why I got the 707, BUT, I have experimented with it as part of familiarizing myself with general architecture capability. While not exactly a convenient practice, the best means of dealing with actively playing multiple loops in a project I found was simply to stay on top of deleting loops one was done playing with in order to clear the memory out for loading other loops; which deleting and loading loops can be done in real time without stopping play, though there is a bit of a screen delay on being able to browse through samples.
While the 707/101, like it's bigger sibling the Fantom, does hold a clip/scene workflow in sequencing, it's relations to things like Live (or even the older Yamaha SU700 sampler, where the clip/scene workflow originated) should stop there. It's primary focus as an instrument is on synthesis AND NOT sampling. If one is expecting an Ableton like phrase/loop sample based work flow, they're going to be MUCH better off with the Akais (most notably the Akai Force). However, where the Akai's prove stronger in the phrase/loop sample based work flow, their synthesis capabilities fall considerably short of the Zen engines. To similar order, there's many realtime performance sequencing capabilities the 707/101 carry that the Akai's lack; while the Akai's hold some stronger song sequencing capabilities.
Two rather different approaches that just happen to hold some commonality in how some of their approach to sequencing is conducted.
Re: Looper limitations
Getting deeper into it you see so much great things but also so many more opportunities :)
I still find it strange that playing these loops from a drum track works perfectly fine, but from the looper is not possible (ok there is some features on the looper that are not on the drum tracks, like timestretching but still)..
Deleting and adding on the fly is certainly an option for in a live scenario, not so much when you want to pre-arrange a song structure with some loops that you record from some external hardware, for example the other day I had a patch on my 0-coast and recorded 10-20 variations and tried laying them out in seperate scenes, and I would like to keep this workflow out of my PC. Thanks for the akai force tip, never looked at it but will check it out soon (not sure about its workflow/OS, I played with an MPC live for a couple of days but didn't like the non-immediate approach of having to switch pages so much, I find the 707 workflow much better). Was also looking at Maschine+ or 1010 BlackBox for sampling part. Had an octatrack at one point but that was too cumbersome for me for irregular usage while I do love the elektron workflow in the other devices.
I still find it strange that playing these loops from a drum track works perfectly fine, but from the looper is not possible (ok there is some features on the looper that are not on the drum tracks, like timestretching but still)..
Deleting and adding on the fly is certainly an option for in a live scenario, not so much when you want to pre-arrange a song structure with some loops that you record from some external hardware, for example the other day I had a patch on my 0-coast and recorded 10-20 variations and tried laying them out in seperate scenes, and I would like to keep this workflow out of my PC. Thanks for the akai force tip, never looked at it but will check it out soon (not sure about its workflow/OS, I played with an MPC live for a couple of days but didn't like the non-immediate approach of having to switch pages so much, I find the 707 workflow much better). Was also looking at Maschine+ or 1010 BlackBox for sampling part. Had an octatrack at one point but that was too cumbersome for me for irregular usage while I do love the elektron workflow in the other devices.
Re: Looper limitations
The loops put into a Drum TrackSenthrax wrote:Getting deeper into it you see so much great things but also so many more opportunities :)
I still find it strange that playing these loops from a drum track works perfectly fine, but from the looper is not possible (ok there is some features on the looper that are not on the drum tracks, like timestretching but still)..
Deleting and adding on the fly is certainly an option for in a live scenario, not so much when you want to pre-arrange a song structure with some loops that you record from some external hardware, for example the other day I had a patch on my 0-coast and recorded 10-20 variations and tried laying them out in seperate scenes, and I would like to keep this workflow out of my PC. Thanks for the akai force tip, never looked at it but will check it out soon (not sure about its workflow/OS, I played with an MPC live for a couple of days but didn't like the non-immediate approach of having to switch pages so much, I find the 707 workflow much better). Was also looking at Maschine+ or 1010 BlackBox for sampling part. Had an octatrack at one point but that was too cumbersome for me for irregular usage while I do love the elektron workflow in the other devices.
A: Aren't taken in real time
B: Require no processing beyond simple play back (where as looper bits are being time stretched as you noted)
I don't want to end up with my foot in my mouth, but "I think" there's going to be some additional sample based capabilities coming to the Zen engine that will help put the sample time limits into a better context, BUT, can't say I'm expecting any such additional abilities to change the overall inherent nature of the
MC-707/101 of being primarily synthesizers (that can use sample based oscillators) tied to a sequencer.
The fact the Fantoms have something like a 2 gig hard cap on sample storage speaks volumes on that Roland isn't looking at these things as major sample based working affair.
Agreed on that it'd be nice if the 12 minutes of sample time could be breached into if a user desired, but as stands, it "seems" to looks like the "looper" is sort of it's own independent engine of sorts, and as noted, a bit of an after thought Roland slapped on (probably to strike some appeal to fans of their 5 part loopers and the Live crowd).
Re: Looper limitations
Yeah indeed. Well fingers crossed :)