Perplextor wrote:If you stack for example 8 Zone with each having 4 Tones and play a chord with 4 keys you need 128 tones. With a long release time and tone remain being on you will run out of polyphony. But that is an extreme example. I never experienced any issues.
Wait for the 2.0 Update and can‘t resist...
Latest update was1.6.
So for 2.0 it looks like we are to wait for 2022 or later....
V-Piano is its own thing. It has unlimited polyphone and doest take any of the 256/128 notes from elsewhere.
Personally I think the stereo thing is acceptable- so its 128 really not 256 (due to the stereo thing) HOWEVER:
1. It should reserve 2 voices if the PCM is mono.... I use VA 90% of the time which is all mono...... yet I have half my voices "saved".
2. Polyphony shouldnt be per partial..... it should be per tone. Look at Peak for instance. its 8 note polyphony, but each note is a tone - and a tone could be up to 3 oscillators. If they used the same terms as Roland it would be 24 note Poly. Ditto a Rev 2 with its twin osc plus sub - again 8 or 16 note (depending on the model) but each note could have 3 osc (both main plus sub). Thats 24 notes for the 8 voice and 48 note for the 16..... Roland have been a little naughty here opn how they are describing Polyphony here.
Either way - the explanation from the of "stereo bits" and it really being 128 note not 256 STILL doesnt add up.
I tested, with 14 partials. Not counting the stereo thing - so well assume Im dealing with 128 notes of polyphony. I got 7 notes ok - which is 96 voices, then the next stole the first note played. Is shouldnt have - as I SHOULD have been up to 112 voices....still within the 128 limit.
I had no reverb on anything, no FX at all and no "reserved" notes in scene settings. The Envelopes were all instant on/off with no decay or indeed attack. Unison was off - all deliberately done for the test, so there is nothing to explain why it stole before hitting 128..... unless something else (like the seamless switching) also "reserves" notes....
Filter slope should have absolutely no affect on Polyphony.... it doesnt affect note length at all - it affects the frequency of the note NOT if the note is on or off. The amp envelope will - if it had a long decay (so one note still sounds when you trigger another) BUT it the amp envelope has a sharp decay the filter slope has no affect at all (as its already stopped sounding). The filter envelopes also wont matter, again because if the amp end is off, theres no sound regardless - and if its open there is regardless.
BillySynth wrote:Thus far no company has created a bullet proof unlimited polyphony synth or Workstation. I kill the polyphony on the Oasys, Kronos, Fantom 8, and my Jupiter 8 in seconds of playing full chordal passages.
This is something that has bothered me for years on end.
When will the day come when they come up with a real non cut off note polyphony solution.
Why don’t they put an extra digital box in there just for polyphony management and not part of the overall system that shares with other component such as effects etc.
Come up with something revolutionary and new man.
It’s 2020 and they still can’t get it right.
Well they’ve solved smooth transitioning from one preset to another without interruption or break.
Fix the God Damn Polyphony please!
Vas
Actually - the V-Piano engine IS unlimited.... You can literally play every note on the 88 keybed and non will disappear. Its because its a modelled sound NOT a sampled one they can do this - but it is truly unlimited within V-Piano sounds.
Question: What is the maximum polyphony?
Answer: The maximum polyphony is as follows.
V-Piano Technology tones: All keys produce sound (can be selected only for ZONE 1)
ZEN-Core tones / Drum Kit tones (common): 256 notes
If you combine V-Piano Technology tones with ZEN-Core tones / Drum Kit tones (as a layer), the maximum polyphony is not summed, but is counted separately.
For ZEN-Core tones including PCM/VA and Drum Kit tones, the polyphony of all zones (maximum 16 parts) is counted.
If the OSC TYPE is PCM, wave can be individually assigned to L and R of the partial, meaning that one partial counts as two notes.
BillySynth wrote:Well they’ve solved smooth transitioning from one preset to another without interruption or breaks
Here goes your extra polyphony.
Yes it seems like this feature (that not a lot of people probably use or care about) could be causing us to have HALF the polyphony we would otherwise have!!
Is this what you are alluding to?
I am running out of voice with only 4 tracks gong in the sequencer... depressing!
Its not half. AS I say, I can get 98 voices (or 196 stereo PCMs) before any stealing WITH seamless switching. That wouldnt be possible if it took half - it would start stealing at 64 (being 128 stereo, plus 128 saved for switching =256). My guess is that it sames "some" - my guess is around 48, which is 4 partials in stereo, across 6 notes (either tree note chords layered across 2 zones, or 6 notes in a single zone).
That number would fit with the testing I have done (by no means exhaustive), and means in reality - assuming 4 partial tones (of course using less will give higher polyphony - but as a worst case scenario) a "real world" polyphony of 26 notes...... again - worst case, given 4 partials in each tone so could be improved, but you have to assume worse case.
Perplextor wrote:If you stack for example 8 Zone with each having 4 Tones and play a chord with 4 keys you need 128 tones. With a long release time and tone remain being on you will run out of polyphony. But that is an extreme example. I never experienced any issues.
Wait for the 2.0 Update and can‘t resist...
Latest update was1.6.
So for 2.0 it looks like we are to wait for 2022 or later....
Not really.
a "point" increase inan OS is generally a minor update. A Major update usually get a full number increase.
So 1.6 is a minor update from 1.5 Another minor update would take us to 1.7 HOWEVER, if the next update is a major one - it would get 2.0 straight away.
OK - seems Im right about the "reserving for seemless switching) I designed 2 tones. One was a 4 partial which I held on the lowest note only- the other was 2 partial which i used to add polyphony. I got to 104 partials (the 4 low note plus 50 notes of the twin Osc patch) before I got note steeling, when I added the next I lost 2 partials of the low note, and the next I lost it all. That means I had 104 partials used before stealing. Using the 128 note (not 256 voice) figures, that means there are 24 notes (or 48 voices) being reserved for something else....which I can only assume is the seemless switching.
This test seems pretty conclusive (if not the reasons).
We have 128 voices of polyphony...which is 256 stereo partials (or 256 voices). This is the first thing Roland need to change (if its possible with firmware) - as using mono waveforms shouldnt use 2 voices.... it would only every need 1.
There are then 24 notes of polyohony being reserved by the system for something. While I/we dont know what - it would seem sensible to assume thats for the seamless switching. So making that switchable on/off would give the possibility to increase polyphony if needed.
That gives us currently 104 notes of useable polyphony. This is 104 PARTIALS though, NOT Notes. This is key when designing sounds, and using the sequencer. Using 4 partials in every tone would reduce you polyphony to 26 notes. The vast majority of sounds (certainly synth ones) would use at least 2 waveforms - and while some orchestral sounds may only use a single - the two are likely to balance, so its realistic to assume a working base of 52 notes (not worst case, but average use and a base line to work from).
Its also important to note the effect of decay. While FX (including reverb) are not counted to polyphony, having a note decay via the partials amp envelope means its still using notes of polyphony when it decays. The same will be true of PCM sounds such as pianos etc where the sample decays after release. For many of us this will greatly reduce the actual working polyphony.... again by perhaps half on average.
So - ultimately, while we have some control with the design of sounds, we dont have total control of how polyphony is reserved/used - and actually we only have somewhere around 26 notes worth as a baseline average that we can actually rely on.
Thats not a lot if your using layers, or indeed splits in the sequencer. If you layered 4 x 4 partial tones - or 4 2 partial tones where the PCMs or amp envs have a decay, you could only play 6 notes - after which you'd get note stealing....
At least if you could turn off seemless switching, and dynamically assign polyphony dependant on the waves being stereo or mono - you could actually up that to 16 notes (given the same 4 x 4 partial tones, or 4 x 2 partial tones with decaying amp envs or Samples). Even thats not GREAT, but at least thats reasonably workable.
Perplextor wrote:If you stack for example 8 Zone with each having 4 Tones and play a chord with 4 keys you need 128 tones. With a long release time and tone remain being on you will run out of polyphony. But that is an extreme example. I never experienced any issues.
Wait for the 2.0 Update and can‘t resist...
Latest update was1.6.
So for 2.0 it looks like we are to wait for 2022 or later....
Not really.
a "point" increase inan OS is generally a minor update. A Major update usually get a full number increase.
So 1.6 is a minor update from 1.5 Another minor update would take us to 1.7 HOWEVER, if the next update is a major one - it would get 2.0 straight away.