Pianos

[William Coakley]

Thanks for the welcome. Most of my life has been spent around people from all walks of life... so nothing surprises me and I appreciate all. What a boring world we would have if it were not for variations on a theme.

I also realize there were times when I couldn't afford the best and I just wanted something to get me by. But it didn't take long before I realized that the compromises in quality that I made actually became the more expensive option in the long run.

The piano is a specially prepared Steinway D made in Hamburg. The preparation consists of many things, among them an intimate knowledge of the piano both from a technical and artist standpoint. Usually, a couple of days worth of playing and exploring. This is necessary because it has to be determined just how to touch it to make it come alive in a stagnant sample form. This is all part of the development process... the forethought... to envision a design for the piano. Then my tuning hammer hits the pins and never leaves until the sampling is finished which may take weeks.

The existing Roland piano shows that the "forethought" process was skipped. As a result, the piano was emasculated by the design, with it's short samples, sterile loops, abnormal compression and it wasn't a choice piano to begin with because of it's short length. The real killer at the bottom of the heap was the insistence on 4 layers and not 2. It was a pitiful waste of memory resources with nothing gained. This memory could have been used to lengthen the samples which would have given the piano the potential for significantly better performance. That is why it has the earmark of being a first attempt at sampling a piano for someone.

My piano ended up as a 128 meg two layer instrument. Logically, more layers should sound better, but as we've already seen, that's only logic. In the real world things are much different. For example, memory limitations and the character of the piano might dictate otherwise. In this case, the two layers are seamless when they switch, no realism was lost, and this gave the piano the ability to go "loopless."


As for the product you buy, I always reduce it to "sample sets." This eliminates much confusion. There is one sample set for the Hamburg D and about 20 patches designed for mixing convenience. They can save hours of time in the control room.

Next is the New York Steinway. Again, two layers and about 51 megs. This piano was redesigned specifically for the Fantom and is demo number 7 in the Volume 5 demo section. It has a beautiful upper half and a rich bottom end. There are about a dozen patches configuring those samples.

Additionally, I am running a Pre-release offer which adds the legendary Steinway D40 EQ that Ensonic licensed and later Emu licensed it for use in their keyboards. This piano was completely overhauled from the sample level on up... just for the Fantom. It sounds better than ever and is a serious "+" but, it won't be included much longer as I have officially begun shipping.

I hope this helps. Let me know if you have any questions.

William williamcoakley.com

[jcthemc]

are the samples pedal down? how do you implement sustain or the lack thereof? through synthesis?


JC THE MC...
Fantom X6 2.0,V-Synth 2.0,B4Real 6.0,Traction 1.0,Sound Forge 7,Acid 4.0,Mackie DFX 12,Alesis QuadraVerb

Series Synths!

B4 Real Authentic Hammond B3 Emulator for the Fantom X

[The_Magus]

Well, sorry, no mean to make offense but you're not a
real musician if you state that you can get a real
piano on a synth- not even the touch with hammered action
is the same, and analogic is different from digital you know - no matter how well you sample a piano or try to emulate its resonances, or how much you deepen in the techical aspect
of physic analysis of its sound, the best patch in the world is no match for a grand stainway.
We can get good sounds, even beautiful, but with the real instruments it's just another world of feelings.
IMHO

[jcthemc]

God help us endure the purists!!!!!!!!

that is a completely useless argument!
I cannot afford a steinway grand and I cannot carry it around to gigs... so i will take the next best thing...

also, perception is all that matters not realisim if somone perceives that the instrument is in fact authentic, then there is no argument!


JC THE MC...
Fantom X6 2.0,V-Synth 2.0,B4Real 6.0,Traction 1.0,Sound Forge 7,Acid 4.0,Mackie DFX 12,Alesis QuadraVerb

B4 Real Authentic Hammond B3 Emulator for the Fantom X Series Synths!

B4 Real Authentic Hammond B3 Emulator for the Fantom X Get it here!!!

[William Coakley]

The beauty of the Roland Fantom is somebody was thinking. They include an algorithm that perfectly emulates pedal down samples. My Hamburg Steinway D would come to at least 256 megs if it weren't for Roland engineering. Motif doesn't have it and Korg may have something in the future but the Triton doesn't have it.

For you, this means greatly improved performance. With a 128 voice instrument you have as much polyphony power as you would have on a 256 voice instrument plus the added benefit of lower voice aquisition times which explains why the Fantom is so snappy with my piano in it.

William

[William Coakley]

You seem to have a fairly short fuse... sorry if you found my comments offensive.

But please understand that having not worked with the world class instrument I have... how would you know what it's like? I tried to make this point earlier and its to your credit... that the industry has been so filled with poor quality pianos (one of which you are using right now) that no one.... including yourself has any idea of how it feels to be working with a world class instrument albeit on a controller.

I can tell you that the soul of what you hear in my demos comes from the experience you seek.

William williamcoakley.com

[Liquid]

Welcome Mr. Coakley, it's been an eye opener looking at your site and reading your posts. I too have been dissatisfied with the Ultimate Grand although the '+' version is a big improvement.

I'm now seriously thinking of buying your CD (and especially with the offer on it which I didn't know about until a few messages above!).

Do you perhaps have a wav file handy of the piano, e.g. a short section of the first sample file? I'd like to possibly play the sample through my Fantom and hence through my actual setup to just hear the difference with the UG+ if that's at all possible? (I currently can't convert mp3s into wavs). But if you don't have one it's not really an issue as I'm sufficiently impressed so far to probably order one on Monday!

Thanks!

[William Coakley]

I have a wave file of the demos... if that's what you mean. Problem is getting it to you. And playing it back through the Fantom...? I wouldn't recommend that. If you have a regular stereo or even a pair of headphones hooked up to a stereo system, that would be better.

William

[Liquid]

I've got broadband if it was on a web site somewhere (better than trying to email it).

I thought playing through the Fantom would have been a good idea, no? I use a pair of Mackie SRM350s for speakers and everything sounds fantastic through them except the pianos! If your wav sounds great (loaded from CF card) through the Mackies it confirms 100% that it's the default pianos which sound tinny and dead and nothing to do with my setup.

I've played your mp3s through a decent system and am prepared to purchase on that alone, but I thought the wav-through-Fantom comparison was actually a good idea

And thanks for the quick reply, very impressed!

[William Coakley]

I am suspicious about playback through the Fantom because of the emphasis/preemphasis thing. Plus, in many units and even software synths... there is a default setting or template which many times includes some little something somewhere. Without having done the grunt work of loading samples myself; I can't be sure about it.

But I am quite sure that the stock pianos are not pretty or appealing. There is the middle octave squawk on some notes, others with a tubby sound. The bass is very uneven and full of enharmonic stuff which generally comes from a less than 6.5 foot grand. So I wouldn't be to bothered if everything else sounds good and the pianos don't. I have a pair of Genelecs in here, and some 824s and nothing makes those Roland pianos sound good.

However, I am also an acoustics expert and my studio work area is a full blown mastering room. So, if you need some help tweeking your room, maybe I can help. Remember, speakers are one thing; the room is everything.

William

[sambasevam]

There are some free piano samples on Iowa's website. Just drag and drop them to your Fantom and create your own multisample.

You dont need ALL those samples, BTW. Just choose one sample for every 4/5 keys and you should do fine.



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If at first you dont suceed, then skydiving is definitively not for you.

[Liquid]

I'm happy to go with your judgement.

I'm currently playing for Les Mis rehearsals on a long (haven't measured it) Boston grand and it is really nice. The bottom end in particular is very meaty. I'm using the X8 for the actual show and there's just no comparison!

As for the room, I dont have one as such - I mainly play in pits for shows or halls for concerts and it's different each time. But as long as I can get a sound I like for me I'm not too fussed about what the public think, they should be paying attention to the stage anyway!

[William Coakley]

I mentioned this before somewhere that I have over 20 patches that are designed for mixing. They are also quite perfect for aligning your piano to different rooms and sound systems. I will step through those by phone when you get the disk.

William williamcoakley.com

[Liquid]

Right, I'll find a credit card with enough free on it

I meant to say (not seen anyone else mention this) that I received the latest Roland newsletter a few days ago and it came with a DVD containing NAMM booth clips etc. One of the items covers the making of the SRX11 card with Scott Tibbs (?) (looking a lot older than last year) interviewing the techie in the studio and talking about how it was all sampled etc. There's a picture of the (well, a) piano in the studio.

It all sounds very impressive and apparently Scott personally played all the notes, no mechanical aids to get the velocity levels. I'm not going to buy it though

[William Coakley]

Marketing gurus know how to lure the unsuspecting into purchasing just about anything. In this case, the money is all spent on having it appear like a product for professionals rather than making sure it actually is. BS isn't an occupational hazard for marketers... it's pretty much a job description. : )

William