Functionality FA06/08 rhythm patterns.

[Enfurio]

Hi guys,

I was wondering if someone could shed a light on this:

Most piano entertainers i know still use a Roland GW8 as a top-keyboard for triggering drum patterns where they play manual bass/horns section on top off. I saw that the FA06 has a rhythm player as well with intro/fill-in functionality like the GW8 (and other keyboards). I was wondering if the functionality of the FA rhythm player stand up to dedicated keyboards? Is there a downside to the FA rhythm player compared to a keyboard/workstation like a GW8 or BK5? Having those integra 7 sounds makes the FA06 much more appealing to me than an older GW8.

Can a drum pattern + drum tempo be integrated in a studioset OR can I sent midi data to choose a studioset as well as a drum pattern + drum tempo at the same time? I cannot allow myself to have long gaps between songs. Should I buy a FA06 or would you advise me something else?

Cheers, Tim

[ayryq]

I can't answer all your questions nor have I ever used a GW8, but I'll give you a few impressions:

-you have to leave the rhythm "page" on the screen or you can't stop or change the pattern. Which means none of the "normal" studio set/mixer/tone view.
-The "transition" patterns are two bars long and only play in entirety. So you have to hit them more than two bars before your transition to get the hit to line up. I find this really unintuitive, I want to hit the transition in the last bar or so before the chorus.
-The drum tracks are WAY too loud compared to everything else, you have to dial back channel 10 in every studio set.
-The patterns are pretty good: usable, and unimpressive.
-Pattern and tempo save with the studio set. Tempo knob is really nice.
-The sync-start option doesn't turn off after you use it, so if you forget and play something after you've stopped the drums, they'll start again.

[ayryq]

Something else I thought of: it's pretty hard to catch the tempo. The sequence "play" button blinks in tempo but it's pretty small. Meanwhile any number of the sampler pads might be blinking at a different tempo, much brighter and larger. The tap function is neat but it pops up a little "Tempo" window that blocks you from doing anything else until it is manually dismissed.

[Enfurio]

-The drum tracks are WAY too loud compared to everything else, you have to dial back channel 10 in every studio set.

So the drum pattern is saved as soon you save the studioset and set to channel 10? That would indicate to me that the drum section is not separate and cannot be midi controlled separately from a studioset. Am I wrong?

The thing is I have a very large repertoire (400+ songs) because I do live request gigs. I probably only need 2 - 3 studiosets to have all the (split) sounds I need (bass/horns – bass/organ etc). But when it comes to drums I need many different beats and tempo`s to match each song. So I need to know if this is midi programmable OR that I can switch drums easy.

[ayryq]

Yes, the pattern is associated with the studio set, as is the drum kit.

Have a look at the "MIDI Implementation" at http://www.roland.com/products/fa-06/downloads/

Looks like there's MIDI addresses for Rhythm bank/pattern/variation, for "key trigger," and for drum kit selection. So if you're performing with a laptop you could maybe set up a command that first switches studio sets and then transmits the sysex to load the correct rhythm pattern. This is a little out of my depth.

I'm not sure how tempo is controlled, might be able to be assigned to a MIDI CC.

I want to emphasize again how irritating and useless the transition patterns are. I almost never can get them to trigger on the right bar.

Eric

[Enfurio]

Yes, the pattern is associated with the studio set, as is the drum kit.

Have a look at the "MIDI Implementation" at http://www.roland.com/products/fa-06/downloads/

Looks like there's MIDI addresses for Rhythm bank/pattern/variation, for "key trigger," and for drum kit selection. So if you're performing with a laptop you could maybe set up a command that first switches studio sets and then transmits the sysex to load the correct rhythm pattern. This is a little out of my depth.

I'm not sure how tempo is controlled, might be able to be assigned to a MIDI CC.

I want to emphasize again how irritating and useless the transition patterns are. I almost never can get them to trigger on the right bar.

Eric

Thank you Eric!

[ayryq]

I had an idea to use the pads as numeric keypad to easily change drum patterns. Which works fine. However you cannot change studio sets from the rhythm pattern screen, you have to exit back to the studio set screen.

And I also discovered that if you switch studio sets while a rhythm pattern is playing, it continues playing - but using the new pattern, tempo, set, and volume stored with the studio set.

[Enfurio]

Aha interesting.. I would probably use the pads to trigger house beat samples and use the rhythm patterns for all other music genres.

I downloaded the midi implementation sheet to see if i can send midi data to choose a studioset and rhythm pattern seperately (not a drum pattern that is part of a studioset). And maybe a sample bank together with a studioset. I need some digging to find that out. I will try to trigger those midi events with my Onsong app on my ipad. It will be a hell of a job but IF this is possible i would surely invest my time in this asap.

Good to know that you can switch studiosets while playing a drum pattern.

[ayryq]

Good to know that you can switch studiosets while playing a drum pattern.

No, that's not what I said. The rhythm remains "playing" but it most likely will abruptly shift to a new tempo and pattern when you switch studio sets (it will shift to whatever is saved with the new studio set).

I figured out some of the sysex for changing rhythm patterns. I couldn't see anything at all changing when I sent sysex for the "Rhythm Pattern Number" as documented - but the "Rhythm Pattern Variation" sysex changed the preset.

Code: Select all

F0 41 10 00 00 77 12 18 00 50 2F 00 69 F7 <-rhythm pattern variation 00 (01: ROCK 1)
F0 41 10 00 00 77 12 18 00 50 2F 01 68 F7 <-rhythm pattern variation 01 (02: ROCK 2)

Code: Select all

F0 41 10 00 00 77 12 18 00 50 2E 00 6A F7 <-rhythm pattern bank PRESET
F0 41 10 00 00 77 12 18 00 50 2E 01 69 F7 <-rhythm pattern bank USR

Code: Select all

(doesn't do anything?)
F0 41 10 00 00 77 12 18 00 50 30 00 68 F7 <-rhythm pattern number 00 
F0 41 10 00 00 77 12 18 00 50 30 01 67 F7 <-rhythm pattern number 01

Also there's this:

Code: Select all

F0 41 10 00 00 77 12 18 00 50 1C 01 7B F7 <-pattern key trigger ON
F0 41 10 00 00 77 12 18 00 50 1C 00 7C F7 <-pattern key trigger OFF

The way this works is, each rhythm preset (e.g. ROCK 2) is just a list of six rhythm patterns. So ROCK 2 has pattern P007 for Intro, P008 for Verse 1, etc. You can concoct your own patterns and your own presets.

Anyone know what "Rhythm Pattern Number" does?

[ayryq]

By the way, I have entirely failed to find a way to set tempo externally.

Eric

[bennyseven]

as far as i know, TEMPO ist part of the Studio Set parameter. But I don't know if it is changeable on runtime level.

[Enfurio]

This is becoming more complex every day.. I wait a few days before ordering my FA06 and make sure this will work in my situation. Having to change tempo manually is not that big of deal actually. I can write the tempo down on every PDF that i load in Onsong or I can even TAB the tempo on the board. If this will be the only problem along side the strange fill-in timing thing, i can live with it.

[ayryq]

I did a little more experimenting for you today.

First there's a setting to make tempo global instead of connected to studio sets. I suspect that'll be more useful to you if you're reusing a handful of studio sets.

I switched to a random studio set and random drum rhythm. I brought the rhythm pattern display up on the screen. I started the drum pattern going.

Then I sent this string from MIDI-OX:

Code: Select all

BF 20 00
CF 02
F0 41 10 00 00 77 12 18 00 50 2F 00 69 F7
B9 20 40
C9 01

Without changing the screen, the studio set changed—in the background—to USER 003, the rhythm changed to PRST 01, and the drum kit changed to PRST 0002. The new drum rhythm continued with a brief glitch. In most situations I imagine you'd stop and restart the drums, actually.

You could actually modify the loaded studio set in the sysex too - like if you wanted studio set USER 003 but with EP instead of organ, for example. Or you could build up the studio set entirely in sysex, with effects, patches, controller configuration, everything. Except tempo, apparently. Note that you can set up a pedal to do tap tempo.

[nathbeadle]

Hey Ayryq

Awesome work, a great find. Appreciate your digging into this, very helpful!

[Enfurio]

First there's a setting to make tempo global instead of connected to studio sets. I suspect that'll be more useful to you if you're reusing a handful of studio sets.

It sure seems like it!

I switched to a random studio set and random drum rhythm. I brought the rhythm pattern display up on the screen. I started the drum pattern going.

Then I sent this string from MIDI-OX:

Code: Select all

BF 20 00
CF 02
F0 41 10 00 00 77 12 18 00 50 2F 00 69 F7
B9 20 40
C9 01

Without changing the screen, the studio set changed—in the background—to USER 003, the rhythm changed to PRST 01, and the drum kit changed to PRST 0002. The new drum rhythm continued with a brief glitch. In most situations I imagine you'd stop and restart the drums, actually.

Yes i stop and restart after every song with the acception when 2 songs use the same beat ofcourse. Very good to know the screen does not change and things can happen at the background.

You could actually modify the loaded studio set in the sysex too - like if you wanted studio set USER 003 but with EP instead of organ, for example. Or you could build up the studio set entirely in sysex, with effects, patches, controller configuration, everything. Except tempo, apparently. Note that you can set up a pedal to do tap tempo.

That would give me maximum usage of a studio set and free up some "favorites" buttons (although favorites could potentially glitch the drums). I could even program it like a time-based thing. Triggering set modifications on certain parts in a song through Onsong. Too bad i need to wait until my FA06 arrives so i can try this out myself..

Great work Eric, it`s very helpfull!