New JP-80 user here. Have only spent a few hours with it so far, so please enlighten me if I am missing things I haven't figured out yet.
I'm actually reasonably happy with the basic organ sounds that are there. By using the MFX in combination with the drawbars, its possible to get a very wide variety of organ sounds. I have heard people complaining about the rotary speaker not being the greatest, well ok, but I have heard a *LOT* worse in my day, its pretty decent, considering this keyboard can do so many other things too. What I'm more disappointed with is that they left out the C/V from the organ. Also the fact that the touch screen is not multi-touch, for the drawbars. The end result is that while some pretty convincing "static" organ sounds can be dialed in with programming and care, I find it a bit cumbersome it terms of being able to do a more dynamic performance where chorus is being brought in and out, tone bar tones are changing dynamically, etc. Since a C/V was not included, MFX has to be used for it, which is not quite the same for one thing, though maybe someone has figured out the best FX to use for that and how; but also it seems cumbersome to bring the chorus in and out dynamically as you're playing. But I'm new to this keyboard, so maybe I'm missing something.
So the question is what people have thought of as ways to setup the JP-80, including with external controllers, in order to control the drawbars, C/V, etc in real time?
Yes I realize if I want a B3 clone, I should get a B3 clone. I've owned some before. maybe i will again. Right now my goal is to get my rig down to one single keyboard, so I'm trying to find a solution to make the JP-80 be "the one". Its got most all of the tones I really want and need and sounds fantastic really. However, it seems like it will take some creativity to get a few things working right in the organ dept. I have still not decided yet also if I can live with the non-weighted keys, but that's another story.
So one thing I have thought of for organ is that perhaps I will have to use tone blending to pull off some of the dynamics. I reckon I will have to setup live sets on a song by song basis which have some tone blending programming setup to give me the dynamics that are specific to that song, then use a controller to add the dynamics, whether its bringing chorus in and out of the organ, or changing the drawbars or whatever. That will work for some simple things. For some more elaborate stuff I guess I might have to use more then one live set for a song or something of that nature.
What other ideas do people have about optimizing the organ out of this beast?
Jupiter-80 Organ, optimizing it.
Re: Jupiter-80 Organ, optimizing it.
I don't think the official JP iPad editor lets you control the organ, but that would have been a nice feature since the iPad hardware is multi-touch.
Another iPad solution is discussed here (TB MIDI Stuff app):
viewtopic.php?f=44&t=42070
Another iPad solution is discussed here (TB MIDI Stuff app):
viewtopic.php?f=44&t=42070
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anotherscott
- Posts: 513
- Joined: 19:05, 1 July 2010
Re: Jupiter-80 Organ, optimizing it.
If you have an iPad, the organ provided in the $5 GarageBand program is pretty darn good, provides plenty of real-time touchscreen control, and can easily be triggered over MIDI as part of a Jupiter registration.
Re: Jupiter-80 Organ, optimizing it.
I can confirm that too!!!anotherscott wrote:If you have an iPad, the organ provided in the $5 GarageBand program is pretty darn good, provides plenty of real-time touchscreen control, and can easily be triggered over MIDI as part of a Jupiter registration.
In fact, all it's parameters and rotary speaker are very convincing.
Re: Jupiter-80 Organ, optimizing it.
Really? Never found that- will have to try that again- found it sonically a little thin.
Re: Jupiter-80 Organ, optimizing it.
I'm really looking for solutions to use the Jupiter-80 sounds
Re: Jupiter-80 Organ, optimizing it.
Other than playing with the blender to get the sound that you wish, you can use some tricks with the drawbars.
You can define a set of drawbar configurations that you intend to use more often and associate them with custom registrations, so that you can change from one to another fast during live performance. And this way you can "stack" some configurations with a synth or whatever, to make it sound the way you like it.
Controlling the drawbars live is very difficult, the touch screen is not that responsive. And trying to control them using an external MIDI, well, don't know if it is possible.
You can define a set of drawbar configurations that you intend to use more often and associate them with custom registrations, so that you can change from one to another fast during live performance. And this way you can "stack" some configurations with a synth or whatever, to make it sound the way you like it.
Controlling the drawbars live is very difficult, the touch screen is not that responsive. And trying to control them using an external MIDI, well, don't know if it is possible.
Re: Jupiter-80 Organ, optimizing it.
yea I must admit I'm a little disappointed about the inadequacy of the on screen drawbars. It was one of the main reasons I went for the JP-80 instead of the smaller and lighter JP-50. In retrospect I could have been probably happier with the JP50 (and richer too hehe), since real time use of the drawbars is not really that well designed on the JP-80, and no C/V which is actually an even bigger deal then the drawbars, frankly.
That being said, I agree, I can setup some blenders and registrations to get "enough" real time organ dynamics to sound really great. The only downside is that it takes pre-planning to set it up on a song by song basis really, not exactly an ideal setup for just jamming out and being creative with those aspects of the organ. But its ok. Actually in terms of performance, where I know the song ahead of time exactly what needs to be done, the tone blender makes it easier to play, once its all setup.
The tone blender is actually a very powerful feature which I intend to put to use in a lot of different ways, but generally speaking it does require pre-planning to setup the right blenders and registrations for the job at hand, but at least we can, its a cool feature!
But I am also curious if anyone has setup any external drawbar controllers that can control the drawbars on the JP-80, and also an external switch to turn chorus on/off, etc.. Are those things even controllable via external midi?
That being said, I agree, I can setup some blenders and registrations to get "enough" real time organ dynamics to sound really great. The only downside is that it takes pre-planning to set it up on a song by song basis really, not exactly an ideal setup for just jamming out and being creative with those aspects of the organ. But its ok. Actually in terms of performance, where I know the song ahead of time exactly what needs to be done, the tone blender makes it easier to play, once its all setup.
The tone blender is actually a very powerful feature which I intend to put to use in a lot of different ways, but generally speaking it does require pre-planning to setup the right blenders and registrations for the job at hand, but at least we can, its a cool feature!
But I am also curious if anyone has setup any external drawbar controllers that can control the drawbars on the JP-80, and also an external switch to turn chorus on/off, etc.. Are those things even controllable via external midi?
Re: Jupiter-80 Organ, optimizing it.
In my reply I posted a link to a thread about TB MIDI Stuff. The topic starter has created a configuration for real time control of the JP80 drawbars using this iPad app. Apparently it uses SysEx commands, which is a lower level than MIDI. I plan on testing this combination myself when my JP80 arrives.
I purchased the app and in an hour or so built a very nice drawbar controller and switches for percussion for the TW Organ
Re: Jupiter-80 Organ, optimizing it.
I havent attempted this with ver 2.1 but IIRC Tone blender only works with the SN Synth engine. Staging your registrations by advancing live sets via hitting the increment key seems like the best solution at this time.
Re: Jupiter-80 Organ, optimizing it.
hmmm, drag. Using registrations will not really solve the issue because one of the key things you need to be able to do is hit some notes, hold them and then bring in chorus, bring in rotary, even change the draw bars, while holding the notes. When you change registrations, the held notes don't change. There might be a global setting to change that, but that may not be desired for other stuff.
So MFX settings can't be adjusted with the tone blender, only synth settings?
So MFX settings can't be adjusted with the tone blender, only synth settings?
Re: Jupiter-80 Organ, optimizing it.
I'm sad to hear also that JP-80 can't use controllers to adjust things like drawbars. Only sysex. wow. That means there aren't any hardware controllers that could be used. Perhaps an ipad app.
Re: Jupiter-80 Organ, optimizing it.
You can control FX sends in toneblender. You might check if patch remain is set to on. The TW organ is my least favorite part of Jupiter because of certain omissions and the way you have to control it (this is why I kept my XK3c).
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synthguy99
- Posts: 123
- Joined: 05:06, 20 December 2012
Re: Jupiter-80 Organ, optimizing it.
Drawbar implementation on the JP is strange. Making them controllable with sysex only makes sense if you have physical controllers on board or in a forthcoming controller unit. But it's been about a year now, way too long to leave people hanging like this. Roland really needs to address this seriously, including the chorus/vibrato omission, because including a half-azzed - or mostly azzed - organ model is a big no-no these days, as crucial as organ sounds can be in many styles of music. It's one more little thing making some buyers look in another direction, because the JP-80 is a little pricey to leave a beginning keyboardist needing something else to give him a playable organ.
Like Devnor, I have some organy assets on hand to cover that aspect, but many keyboard players just have a rompler, maybe a VA or digital piano to go with it. And if Roland releases a better keyboard, like an Integra based workstation with all the organ controls on the panel, or a VR replacement, which is also likely, that's just going to make the organ model in the JPs seem that much weaker. Hopefully they listen...
And I do say this as a fan of the new synths, one of which I hope to own in a couple of months. When you make a flagship keyboard, you have to load the thing up well with goodies. If one or two other makers have better units in some way, that takes away some of the luster you really need to stand out in this tight fisted market.
Like Devnor, I have some organy assets on hand to cover that aspect, but many keyboard players just have a rompler, maybe a VA or digital piano to go with it. And if Roland releases a better keyboard, like an Integra based workstation with all the organ controls on the panel, or a VR replacement, which is also likely, that's just going to make the organ model in the JPs seem that much weaker. Hopefully they listen...
And I do say this as a fan of the new synths, one of which I hope to own in a couple of months. When you make a flagship keyboard, you have to load the thing up well with goodies. If one or two other makers have better units in some way, that takes away some of the luster you really need to stand out in this tight fisted market.
Re: Jupiter-80 Organ, optimizing it.
The JP-80 is still a great keyboard with some great sounds and features. I wish I had known about the organ limitations ahead of time. Actually, I will say in general, it seems like it does not posess enough midi CC control over a variety of parameters for those of us wanting more expression.
I still probably would have gotten the JP-50 and accepted the limitations just fine. Its disappointing that they didn't make the organ just a tiny bit better. The sound engine is basically there for the organ to totally rip, they just overlooked the ability to control it in realtime. On the other hand, the sounds themselves are way better than a rompler and you can at least use drawbars to create a "static" organ sound that is exactly how you like it....plus use the MFX section to dirty it up or whatever. So for simple organ playing, its actually quite fine as is. An awful lot of gigging musicians will be fine with it as it is frankly speaking.
Myself I can't justify hauling around a dedicated organ clone. My organ needs sit somewhere in the middle. The main reason I got this keyboard was because it has organs, pianos, wurley's, rhodes, string pads galore, and lots of synths with some pretty phenomenal filters for what it is...and the ability to stack and layer things and get some monster fat sounds. I kind of viewed it as the "perfect" all-in-one I only wish it had just a WEEE bit more control to turn organ C/V on and off, frankly if I had just even that along with the leslie, I would probably be satisfied.
A true organ player needs to work the draw bars, and while I might find a case for that, it won't be often. Someone like that probably should be using a dedicated clonewheel of some kind anyway. But, the JP-80 sound engine is already doing essentially Clonewheel sound and just a tiny bit more thought into how we can control it could have made this keyboard quite a bit more expressive to play in the organ dept. Instead of being relegated to "static" organ sounds, the ability to expressively control some of these elements COULD have been there. That is the disappointing thing.
The organ sounds are still really good, don't get me wrong. In the grand scheme of things for what this keyboard is, and all the other sounds it makes, the organ sounds are REAL good. I could have gotten a Nord Electro, actually I used to have one. It had its own issues too, and most of the other sounds on it left me feeling cold. The JP-80 has a lot of really killer synth sounds that the Nord Electro doesn't touch.
So... Anyway I don't want to see this thread devolve into a JP hate thread. The point is to try to think of work around solutions so that we can get the most out of the JP that we can. it clearly has its strengths and weaknesses, organ control is one of its weakness.
If the drawbars are only controllable via sysex, then I don't think it will be possible to use any hardware midi device to control them, without going through an ipad to convert CC into sysex, if that is even possible, and that is starting to get expensive anyway.
Most likely I could live with just having a way to turn an MFX-based C/V on and off somehow easily with a switch. Combined with the rotary, that would give me enough expression. Turning dirt up and down could be useful also, but less likely to need that in a way that I couldn't handle with a registration change. Some goes for the drawbar settings mostly. But being able to switch on/off C/V while holding notes is really key for me, just like for the leslie sim.
I still probably would have gotten the JP-50 and accepted the limitations just fine. Its disappointing that they didn't make the organ just a tiny bit better. The sound engine is basically there for the organ to totally rip, they just overlooked the ability to control it in realtime. On the other hand, the sounds themselves are way better than a rompler and you can at least use drawbars to create a "static" organ sound that is exactly how you like it....plus use the MFX section to dirty it up or whatever. So for simple organ playing, its actually quite fine as is. An awful lot of gigging musicians will be fine with it as it is frankly speaking.
Myself I can't justify hauling around a dedicated organ clone. My organ needs sit somewhere in the middle. The main reason I got this keyboard was because it has organs, pianos, wurley's, rhodes, string pads galore, and lots of synths with some pretty phenomenal filters for what it is...and the ability to stack and layer things and get some monster fat sounds. I kind of viewed it as the "perfect" all-in-one I only wish it had just a WEEE bit more control to turn organ C/V on and off, frankly if I had just even that along with the leslie, I would probably be satisfied.
A true organ player needs to work the draw bars, and while I might find a case for that, it won't be often. Someone like that probably should be using a dedicated clonewheel of some kind anyway. But, the JP-80 sound engine is already doing essentially Clonewheel sound and just a tiny bit more thought into how we can control it could have made this keyboard quite a bit more expressive to play in the organ dept. Instead of being relegated to "static" organ sounds, the ability to expressively control some of these elements COULD have been there. That is the disappointing thing.
The organ sounds are still really good, don't get me wrong. In the grand scheme of things for what this keyboard is, and all the other sounds it makes, the organ sounds are REAL good. I could have gotten a Nord Electro, actually I used to have one. It had its own issues too, and most of the other sounds on it left me feeling cold. The JP-80 has a lot of really killer synth sounds that the Nord Electro doesn't touch.
So... Anyway I don't want to see this thread devolve into a JP hate thread. The point is to try to think of work around solutions so that we can get the most out of the JP that we can. it clearly has its strengths and weaknesses, organ control is one of its weakness.
If the drawbars are only controllable via sysex, then I don't think it will be possible to use any hardware midi device to control them, without going through an ipad to convert CC into sysex, if that is even possible, and that is starting to get expensive anyway.
Most likely I could live with just having a way to turn an MFX-based C/V on and off somehow easily with a switch. Combined with the rotary, that would give me enough expression. Turning dirt up and down could be useful also, but less likely to need that in a way that I couldn't handle with a registration change. Some goes for the drawbar settings mostly. But being able to switch on/off C/V while holding notes is really key for me, just like for the leslie sim.