No librarian?

[ostrovitch]

Dewdman42, what you say is logic, but I red the midi implementation of the integra7.
It's the same problem, nothing more is documented to write in memory, but anyway they say
they are developping a librarian for Integra7 only for Apple computers.
So, it means the code to write inside memory exists, it's just Roland who don't want to allow third party
to develop any librarian, so they undocument such codes. Shame on them!!

[Devnor]

It’s always something and everything is a conspiracy. Perhaps these “codes” are hidden to keep you from damaging your keyboard even possibly bricking the instrument.

[cello]

The more I am digging very deeply on the JP-80 (more or less a full time job at the moment!), it strikes me there's nothing deliberate going on - one way or the other. It seems the OS/sound structure was built without a thought given to a librarian. I can understand this when the focus was completely on making a sonic powerhouse.

In which Roland succeeded.

I agree it is likely a new OS is required - there are onboard functions (via menu) that would no longer be required (eg swapping registration banks). The limitation of reading from only the ROLAND folder and/or its fixed contents would have to change with a librarian I would have thought.

So it's not just a librarian app we are asking Roland to develop - it's also an OS update to support it. So should Roland JP decide to support the notion, then they do have a bit of work to do (plus testing) before it can get released. I just hope Roland decides to embark on this journey sooner rather than later!!

My head hurts with it all lol ;)

[Devnor]

I agree an OS upgrade would be required to support a librarian.

My question is we know of your aversion to computers & DAW in the studio. Should roland create this software for us, are you ready to spring for a mac and logic to host their new librarian?

[cello]

I agree an OS upgrade would be required to support a librarian.

My question is we know of your aversion to computers & DAW in the studio. Should roland create this software for us, are you ready to spring for a mac and logic to host their new librarian?

haha - indeed I am a bit of a dinosaur in that respect! Believe it or not I have Sonar x2 - but *gasp* I only use it to edit (mostly only to trim to be honest) .wav or .mp3 files *the shame of it*

Certainly, it would seem (ref Integra) that Roland is favouring iOS. Would I spring for a mac? No. The exercise I am going through at the moment will leave me with around 1,000 tones slots and 1,000 liveset slots that are free to use for my own sounds and importing others like Synth legends and/or shared ones through the Repository. I simply back my 'blank' .svd up and I can have multiples of 1,000 slots available on demand - I just have to be careful! It's a long process getting there - I've been working on this for over two weeks - with no time for music-making :( - and I reckon there's at least another 2 weeks ahead of me.

If however Roland want to charge me for a PC librarian, I'm fine with that. They might even throw it in free when I buy their next workstation... ! ;)

[Devnor]

Haven't seen integra system requirements but I'm running OSX Leopard 10.5. Should our friends at Roland make this librarian I'm probably looking at some upgrades before I could take advantage of the software. Not that I really need it...I have given up hope long ago and resorted to creative naming, to hell with factory registrations and deleting all TB303 sounds from my JU80 :0

[ostrovitch]

It’s always something and everything is a conspiracy. Perhaps these “codes” are hidden to keep you from damaging your keyboard even possibly bricking the instrument.

yes you are right, everything are cleaned from Roland, I bought a synth 3000€, I can't manage sounds properly, Roland develop only for Integra, and only for Apple, and they don't provide infos for third party could develop it. If this is not a conspiracy, me I'm Mikey Mouse.

About keeping me from damaging my keyboard, I definitely say no.
Roland in fact, provides the code to send information Inside the Jupiter80, what they don't provide
it's the "address" of Livesets, Registrations and tones Inside the memory, so if I don't have these addresses,
maybe I'll try to find it in doing some blind tries, and by the way I have far more chance to waste my Jupiter80 than if I try to write on the right address.

What I think it's Roland could have some rules with Apple, and don't provide infos, for softwares only could be written by them on Apple devices. Until the beginning, everything they developped were for IPhone or Ipad, and now for Apple computer, about the Librarian for Integra7.

[Dewdman42]

Roland in fact, provides the code to send information Inside the Jupiter80, what they don't provide
it's the "address" of Livesets, Registrations and tones Inside the memory, so if I don't have these addresses,
maybe I'll try to find it in doing some blind tries, and by the way I have far more chance to waste my Jupiter80 than if I try to write on the right address.

I don't know what addresses you would use, but the way to do it would be to first try to read the full range of memory addresses you are considering and dump all the results into a big file. If you find any data anywhere outside the temporary area, then change one of the presets on the JP-80, save it and do the dump again, then do a diff. Little by little you can reverse engineer the memory space, if its even possible to get there through midi at all.

[ostrovitch]

I don't know what addresses you would use, but the way to do it would be to first try to read the full range of memory addresses you are considering and dump all the results into a big file. If you find any data anywhere outside the temporary area, then change one of the presets on the JP-80, save it and do the dump again, then do a diff. Little by little you can reverse engineer the memory space, if its even possible to get there through midi at all.

Yes, It's just what I would like to try, but I need to try reading the whole memory
and I don't know how long a computer needs to read everything, according to the speed of USB
and the 20ms between each packet of data.
About 268 Millions of addresses have a probability of being readable.

[kimsnarf]

I don't think Roland has a preference for Apple products, nor a deal with Apple for exclusivity. I don't see what either party would get out of such an arrangement. Roland's market (instruments) is not big enough (nor profitable enough) for Apple. And Apple's market (computing devices) is not big enough for Roland.

However I do think that Roland tries hard to leverage the strengths of their hardware in the face of increased competition from software instruments. A general purpose computer is the domain of software instruments, especially Windows PCs due to their market share and their history in music software. A plug-in/tool for a hardware instrument would have a hard time standing out in this domain. Also, spending a lot of effort on supporting PCs means simultaneously strengthening the very domain that is the biggest threat to hardware instrument companies.

It is a different matter on "post PC" devices, like the iPad. These are clean sheets in terms of musical software dominance. These devices are much more focused than general purpose computers, and any plug-in/tool can really stand out. These devices are also very portable and thus easy to use as controllers etc. With a good hardware instrument and a good app you don't really need a PC/Mac for making music. Solid integration with "post PC" devices is potentially a gold mine for hardware instrument companies. And they can compete directly against the software instrument onslaught.

The iPad just happens to be the most successful tablet (by far), and is therefore the device that gets all the attention. The Mac support (i.e. for the Integra-7) is probably a side-effect due to the low cost of converting an iOS implementation to OS X. There are no other platforms where you get this kind of synergy, since no competiting platform has the same reach and success in both portable and general purpose devices.

[kimsnarf]

As for myself, I grew up "power-using" and programming computers. I earn my living as a programmer and a software solution consultant. Computer-based solutions are an integral part of basically anything I do. And that is the very reason why I invested in a hardware instrument. I simply don't want to be stuck in front of a computer all the time. A hardware synthesizer is a refreshing experience in that regard. I do realize that a synthesizer is also a computer, especially a digital synth with a fancy touch screen, but operating the synth is still sufficiently different from sitting in front of a computer. This preference is also why I'm cheering for synth software upgrades and "post PC" (i.e. iPad) solutions. Anything that allows me to keep my computer powered down. :)

[PauloF]

I don't think Roland has a preference for Apple products, nor a deal with Apple for exclusivity. I don't see what either party would get out of such an arrangement. Roland's market (instruments) is not big enough (nor profitable enough) for Apple. And Apple's market (computing devices) is not big enough for Roland.

However I do think that Roland tries hard to leverage the strengths of their hardware in the face of increased competition from software instruments. A general purpose computer is the domain of software instruments, especially Windows PCs due to their market share and their history in music software. A plug-in/tool for a hardware instrument would have a hard time standing out in this domain. Also, spending a lot of effort on supporting PCs means simultaneously strengthening the very domain that is the biggest threat to hardware instrument companies.

It is a different matter on "post PC" devices, like the iPad. These are clean sheets in terms of musical software dominance. These devices are much more focused than general purpose computers, and any plug-in/tool can really stand out. These devices are also very portable and thus easy to use as controllers etc. With a good hardware instrument and a good app you don't really need a PC/Mac for making music. Solid integration with "post PC" devices is potentially a gold mine for hardware instrument companies. And they can compete directly against the software instrument onslaught.

The iPad just happens to be the most successful tablet (by far), and is therefore the device that gets all the attention. The Mac support (i.e. for the Integra-7) is probably a side-effect due to the low cost of converting an iOS implementation to OS X. There are no other platforms where you get this kind of synergy, since no competiting platform has the same reach and success in both portable and general purpose devices.

Very interesting view, Kimsnarf!
Being computers part of my life for 40 years now, I tend to agree with your views, however I was thinking that this Roland / Apple "marriage" could represent some interest from Apple in maybe buying Roland... But your view also makes a lot of sense.

[ostrovitch]

I don't think Roland has a preference for Apple products, nor a deal with Apple for exclusivity. I don't see what either party would get out of such an arrangement. Roland's market (instruments) is not big enough (nor profitable enough) for Apple. And Apple's market (computing devices) is not big enough for Roland.

However I do think that Roland tries hard to leverage the strengths of their hardware in the face of increased competition from software instruments. A general purpose computer is the domain of software instruments, especially Windows PCs due to their market share and their history in music software. A plug-in/tool for a hardware instrument would have a hard time standing out in this domain. Also, spending a lot of effort on supporting PCs means simultaneously strengthening the very domain that is the biggest threat to hardware instrument companies.

It is a different matter on "post PC" devices, like the iPad. These are clean sheets in terms of musical software dominance. These devices are much more focused than general purpose computers, and any plug-in/tool can really stand out. These devices are also very portable and thus easy to use as controllers etc. With a good hardware instrument and a good app you don't really need a PC/Mac for making music. Solid integration with "post PC" devices is potentially a gold mine for hardware instrument companies. And they can compete directly against the software instrument onslaught.

The iPad just happens to be the most successful tablet (by far), and is therefore the device that gets all the attention. The Mac support (i.e. for the Integra-7) is probably a side-effect due to the low cost of converting an iOS implementation to OS X. There are no other platforms where you get this kind of synergy, since no competiting platform has the same reach and success in both portable and general purpose devices.

I do agree with you, but I still don't understand why for Integra7 they don't develop a librarian on Ipad.
Even people working on PC mostly have Ipad too, It's very useful as a midi controler.
Developing a librarian on Mac instead, they'll touch far less people.
I really don't understand this strategy, and I consider a lot what PauloF says, about the possibility of Apple buying Roland.

Mostly when Apple buy something in music I waste my money. Last time it was when I bought
Logic Audio for PC, beginning 90's, then Apple Bought Emagic company, forbiding them to continue the PC version, and I wasted my invest.

[Dewdman42]

Is this link of any help?

http://www.chromakinetics.com/handsonic/rolSysEx.htm

[ostrovitch]

Is this link of any help?

http://www.chromakinetics.com/handsonic/rolSysEx.htm

Yes, thanks, but in the Midi implementation document seemed clear too.
Only strategic addresses are missing.