I suppose maybe we are all too used to software retaining its value with upgrades. An investment in an software system if chosen correctly will be updated regularly for very little. Access TI and Korg M3 are great examples of continuous customer support and value in a purchase. Roland not so much in my opinion. But then again I cant record a guitar and record a condenser mic with those products.
The Fantom G is already a great keyboard with so many features and depth to it. Its the potential of what it could be that can be a tad frustrated as its all stuff that can be done.
I was listening to some videos on Youtube of music created on a Korg M1 and its possible to make good music even with that. Maybe I should just get rid of the internet and stop buying mags and be happy with what I have. too many distractions.
Musikmesse Frankfurt !
Re: Musikmesse Frankfurt !
Dream scenario:
Roland present an OS update like the one Apple presented yesterday for their iPhone version 3.0. We're talking about 100 new features!
Roland present an OS update like the one Apple presented yesterday for their iPhone version 3.0. We're talking about 100 new features!
Re: Musikmesse Frankfurt !
Baza and Fat Brass are right.
There are several examples of impressive high priority OS developments everywhere in the market, though you never can compare companies 1:1. But remarkable things are possible
- in a tiny, but extremely creative music company like Access here in Germany: they are simply amazing, concerning pace of constant OS development, amount of free high quality patch access and also character and level of customer care.
- in a middle music company with diversified products like Korg: they had ups and downs, but lately show a clearly more decided development pace for the M3 than Roland for the G. (Yes, they had to, but at least they understood the challange)
- in a big software company like Apple
It's completely up to Roland if they are satisfied to keep the selling of their flagship workstation in the second row behind Yamaha and Korg. Their top management doesn't seem to have any higher aims, based on their behaviour. It's up to them, if they begin to understand that they could long have battled for leadership and dominance with a bit more courage to delvelop the G to (nearly) full maturity fast, adequate to it's great basic technical design.
To me it seems meanwhile that the top Roland management is completely satisfied with a role in the second row for their top gear. They seem to prefer diversification before top success of their top products. So yes, Baza, let's all use the rich possibilities which the G already offers, and just forget about what it could have easily become with some effort. Anything else would be a pleasant surprise, but certainly nothing to be expected from Roland as we know it.
So let's completely relax and wait for Frankfurt. They can't really disappoint us any longer, because they were quite successful in lowering our expectations long enough to judge them in a realistic way ...
There are several examples of impressive high priority OS developments everywhere in the market, though you never can compare companies 1:1. But remarkable things are possible
- in a tiny, but extremely creative music company like Access here in Germany: they are simply amazing, concerning pace of constant OS development, amount of free high quality patch access and also character and level of customer care.
- in a middle music company with diversified products like Korg: they had ups and downs, but lately show a clearly more decided development pace for the M3 than Roland for the G. (Yes, they had to, but at least they understood the challange)
- in a big software company like Apple
It's completely up to Roland if they are satisfied to keep the selling of their flagship workstation in the second row behind Yamaha and Korg. Their top management doesn't seem to have any higher aims, based on their behaviour. It's up to them, if they begin to understand that they could long have battled for leadership and dominance with a bit more courage to delvelop the G to (nearly) full maturity fast, adequate to it's great basic technical design.
To me it seems meanwhile that the top Roland management is completely satisfied with a role in the second row for their top gear. They seem to prefer diversification before top success of their top products. So yes, Baza, let's all use the rich possibilities which the G already offers, and just forget about what it could have easily become with some effort. Anything else would be a pleasant surprise, but certainly nothing to be expected from Roland as we know it.
So let's completely relax and wait for Frankfurt. They can't really disappoint us any longer, because they were quite successful in lowering our expectations long enough to judge them in a realistic way ...
Re: Musikmesse Frankfurt !
Jimknopf:
For me, it's not the same impatience for the Musikmesse to come, as it was with winter NAMM, concerning the Fantom-G alone of course. Maybe my anxiety comes from what the other manufacturers may announce. I'm looking forward to hearing some grat news from Kurzweil, namely a new K-series successor.
I wouldn't count on this, there is always room for further frustration: Imagine them delivering all or most of the issues concerning the FG's OS, but at the same time removing something significant, like multisampling or something like this.So let's completely relax and wait for Frankfurt. They can't really disappoint us any longer, because they were quite successful in lowering our expectations long enough to judge them in a realistic way ...
For me, it's not the same impatience for the Musikmesse to come, as it was with winter NAMM, concerning the Fantom-G alone of course. Maybe my anxiety comes from what the other manufacturers may announce. I'm looking forward to hearing some grat news from Kurzweil, namely a new K-series successor.
Re: Musikmesse Frankfurt !
Another trade show and more wishful thinking accompanied by the threat makers...
ok so here we go again... we all must live in reality, not fairy tale land... The G is what it is and it won't be anything else until Roland decides they want to upgrade the OS and not a second before that... and we must use our G's accordingly because honestly, there is no other choice...
that being said, don't make empty threats about what you will do if Roland doesn't release anything new for the G at Musikmesse... GET RID OF IT OR DON'T!!! (simple enough, eh) in fact do it today because you will find another sucker who will buy it because a new OS will be coming out any day now...
we all continue to build ourselves up for something was never promised to us... Roland will only respond to their bottom line and when they see droves of people choosing different product they can point to the FG and see where they lost their way...
they have my money already and I also enjoy my G but, have they lost a valued customer? Maybe, its up to them... In the meantime I will enjoy my FG even more but there are way too many great products out now (and coming in the future) that have much better technical support and will get my money... The G is out front right now but the competition is learning from Roland's successes and failures...
ok so here we go again... we all must live in reality, not fairy tale land... The G is what it is and it won't be anything else until Roland decides they want to upgrade the OS and not a second before that... and we must use our G's accordingly because honestly, there is no other choice...
that being said, don't make empty threats about what you will do if Roland doesn't release anything new for the G at Musikmesse... GET RID OF IT OR DON'T!!! (simple enough, eh) in fact do it today because you will find another sucker who will buy it because a new OS will be coming out any day now...
we all continue to build ourselves up for something was never promised to us... Roland will only respond to their bottom line and when they see droves of people choosing different product they can point to the FG and see where they lost their way...
they have my money already and I also enjoy my G but, have they lost a valued customer? Maybe, its up to them... In the meantime I will enjoy my FG even more but there are way too many great products out now (and coming in the future) that have much better technical support and will get my money... The G is out front right now but the competition is learning from Roland's successes and failures...
Re: Musikmesse Frankfurt !
>we all must live in reality, not fairy tale land
Ah, yes that bitter reality where there is no progress, nothing changes and actions never have reactions.
I am happy not to live in the same reality...
I live in that fairy tale land where I can talk into a little box and talk with people that live on the other side of the planet just because someone thought it might be possible if we try.
Ah, yes that bitter reality where there is no progress, nothing changes and actions never have reactions.
I am happy not to live in the same reality...
I live in that fairy tale land where I can talk into a little box and talk with people that live on the other side of the planet just because someone thought it might be possible if we try.
Re: Musikmesse Frankfurt !
youre missing my point JesseJ...
all I'm saying is that we should live in the reality that we all bought whatever keyboard we have based on what it does... not what it will or possibly be able to do... If it doesn't do it, then either don't get it or return it... take the good with the bad or get rid of it...
fairy tale land is where we complain every time a trade show comes and goes and Roland doesn't give us a new OS and then subsequently keep the board making threats that if by the next holiday/trade show we will forever be done with Roland and then beat our chest...
reality says keep it or don't, fairy tale land says bitch and moan all while playing our FG's daily and buying the next Fantom the day it ships
all I'm saying is that we should live in the reality that we all bought whatever keyboard we have based on what it does... not what it will or possibly be able to do... If it doesn't do it, then either don't get it or return it... take the good with the bad or get rid of it...
fairy tale land is where we complain every time a trade show comes and goes and Roland doesn't give us a new OS and then subsequently keep the board making threats that if by the next holiday/trade show we will forever be done with Roland and then beat our chest...
reality says keep it or don't, fairy tale land says bitch and moan all while playing our FG's daily and buying the next Fantom the day it ships
Re: Musikmesse Frankfurt !
Ah the reality, where If you voted for George Bush and didn't like it, the only option was to move to Europe or stop whining. After all, you had seen the specs before voting.
It would have been nice to see 67% of the American population moving abroad instead of bitching and moaning and voting for the new OS upgrade that did happen in fairy tale land.
So you buy Windows, and it turns out it has a gaping security hole, then along comes this one forum user that says, shut up, stop whining, you should have known there is a hole when you bought it, Microsoft shouldn't upgrade it, live with it.
In reality we have this thing called customers and support. In YOUR fairy tale land, those things do not exist. There's only obediant suckers that bend over and let companies come in dry.
It would have been nice to see 67% of the American population moving abroad instead of bitching and moaning and voting for the new OS upgrade that did happen in fairy tale land.
So you buy Windows, and it turns out it has a gaping security hole, then along comes this one forum user that says, shut up, stop whining, you should have known there is a hole when you bought it, Microsoft shouldn't upgrade it, live with it.
In reality we have this thing called customers and support. In YOUR fairy tale land, those things do not exist. There's only obediant suckers that bend over and let companies come in dry.
Re: Musikmesse Frankfurt !
And I can't believe every thread turns into this same s___.
Hi Jessej. Sorry, but I took the liberty of editing your last statement, - PiaKnowGuy
Hi Jessej. Sorry, but I took the liberty of editing your last statement, - PiaKnowGuy
Re: Musikmesse Frankfurt !
Good, it could have offended someone.
Re: Musikmesse Frankfurt !
@chicks
we have different ways to reach goals, and different claims about what we regard as justified
- chicks (& others), you say: bought is bought (shut up an play yer guitar, to quote someone else). No problem if you look at it like that FOR YOURSELF. But you can't push others to share your view.
- as I look at it, jessej and I am conviced, that since music instruments like the G are no longer fixed products, but products containing hardware and software, we don't buy a fixed product, but a package, normally (and for good reasons!) containing some updates within it's life cycle. Most nowadays synths are updated like that. So there is no irregular expection about that. It's just nowadays standard. Either Roland lives up to such common standards which customers can (not: must) expect, or they don't. It's up to them.
- chicks (& others): you say, if someone doesn't like it, don't buy it or sell it again afterward
jessej and I (& others) say: no way. First of all we buy a product for its basic quality, fully aware of its limitations (and sometimes bugs) at release time, but at the same time we behave as customers with expectations about further OS development of the device as well, within a reasonable life cycle (normally 3-5 years for such a product nowadays). We don't expect the Fantom S to be developed to G level: that would meet hardware limitations. But we expect the present generation/life cycle device to reach a certain maturity within its own specs and layout. And we express and exchange our concerns within the time of the device's lifecycle, with other users. Of course we can debate the definition of "a certain maturity within its own specs and layout", and from my view a board like this is a welcome place to do so. But that does not change anything about the general kind of expectation.
That does not mean Roland has to care about any such feedback or common nowadays expectations, fulfilled more or less by other brands. And it also does not mean you have to sell your device in first anger, which most times would just be a very bad business for you, instead of hurting the seller. Our evaluation becomes relevant only later, and then some or many can decide to buy products with better basic plus(!) updating value, soon as a new buying decision comes close.
We would all be idiots to feel forced to decide and sell at first frustration, perhaps 3 weeks before an update we waited for appears. In practcal life it works the other way round: you buy a product for good first reasons and then look back at your whole experience later, when you are willing to buy new gear, and you normally do so for positive reasons, not because (and whenever) a brand has annoyed you.
So later you really decide: was the whole package of the lifecycle ok? I certainly don't ask: was the product at day one okay? That's nothing but a first indicator. Roland and any comparable hardware/software products as well have to show their value after I bought their gear, as whole package over several years. If they fail, they won't be bought next time, in calm blood and not at all in momentary anger.
we have different ways to reach goals, and different claims about what we regard as justified
- chicks (& others), you say: bought is bought (shut up an play yer guitar, to quote someone else). No problem if you look at it like that FOR YOURSELF. But you can't push others to share your view.
- as I look at it, jessej and I am conviced, that since music instruments like the G are no longer fixed products, but products containing hardware and software, we don't buy a fixed product, but a package, normally (and for good reasons!) containing some updates within it's life cycle. Most nowadays synths are updated like that. So there is no irregular expection about that. It's just nowadays standard. Either Roland lives up to such common standards which customers can (not: must) expect, or they don't. It's up to them.
- chicks (& others): you say, if someone doesn't like it, don't buy it or sell it again afterward
jessej and I (& others) say: no way. First of all we buy a product for its basic quality, fully aware of its limitations (and sometimes bugs) at release time, but at the same time we behave as customers with expectations about further OS development of the device as well, within a reasonable life cycle (normally 3-5 years for such a product nowadays). We don't expect the Fantom S to be developed to G level: that would meet hardware limitations. But we expect the present generation/life cycle device to reach a certain maturity within its own specs and layout. And we express and exchange our concerns within the time of the device's lifecycle, with other users. Of course we can debate the definition of "a certain maturity within its own specs and layout", and from my view a board like this is a welcome place to do so. But that does not change anything about the general kind of expectation.
That does not mean Roland has to care about any such feedback or common nowadays expectations, fulfilled more or less by other brands. And it also does not mean you have to sell your device in first anger, which most times would just be a very bad business for you, instead of hurting the seller. Our evaluation becomes relevant only later, and then some or many can decide to buy products with better basic plus(!) updating value, soon as a new buying decision comes close.
We would all be idiots to feel forced to decide and sell at first frustration, perhaps 3 weeks before an update we waited for appears. In practcal life it works the other way round: you buy a product for good first reasons and then look back at your whole experience later, when you are willing to buy new gear, and you normally do so for positive reasons, not because (and whenever) a brand has annoyed you.
So later you really decide: was the whole package of the lifecycle ok? I certainly don't ask: was the product at day one okay? That's nothing but a first indicator. Roland and any comparable hardware/software products as well have to show their value after I bought their gear, as whole package over several years. If they fail, they won't be bought next time, in calm blood and not at all in momentary anger.
Re: Musikmesse Frankfurt !
JesseJ I know that you enjoy your FG and your videos show very well that you work well with it. you offer very constructive criticism concerning it... I am not attacking you, you just responded
But this is not about whining, its about holding Roland to an arbitrary timeline that they have never held themselves to and then get we get upset when they don't do anything... "if Roland doesn't do anything by the next Keyboard Mag or SOS issue i'm done with them" sounds ridiculous huh??? 'how about by next thursday??? because personally, friday is the cutoff for me'...
Actually the other 2 updates didn't come at a trade show or in response to Korg or Yamaha... they came on a some random day... this shows very clearly that concerning the FG, Roland is working on their own timeline...
It seems as if we are happy until NAMM/Musikmesse/Korg/Yamaha update and then we become reminded of our utter disappointment and how we absolutely cannot work with this keyboard and Roland has lost my business forever... then we continue obviously torture ourselves, play our FG's, and wait until the next trade show and do it all over again... that's what I am tired of hearing...
But this is not about whining, its about holding Roland to an arbitrary timeline that they have never held themselves to and then get we get upset when they don't do anything... "if Roland doesn't do anything by the next Keyboard Mag or SOS issue i'm done with them" sounds ridiculous huh??? 'how about by next thursday??? because personally, friday is the cutoff for me'...
Actually the other 2 updates didn't come at a trade show or in response to Korg or Yamaha... they came on a some random day... this shows very clearly that concerning the FG, Roland is working on their own timeline...
It seems as if we are happy until NAMM/Musikmesse/Korg/Yamaha update and then we become reminded of our utter disappointment and how we absolutely cannot work with this keyboard and Roland has lost my business forever... then we continue obviously torture ourselves, play our FG's, and wait until the next trade show and do it all over again... that's what I am tired of hearing...
Re: Musikmesse Frankfurt !
April fool is not A Germany thing so no excuse not show something there. If it held in the USA than I will have my doubts up...LOL!
well, lets have fun and put some money on the line. I say lets play the "ARX good faith game".
You pick one from a possibility of Choices and will find out in less than two weeks if you got it right. If they don't announce any ARX than no body looses or wins. if they do reveal any and didn't matches your choice than in good faith you buy your friend lunch or dinner or other haft, anybody, a person in your neighborhood. You choose. Its all just a though....
As for me, I will play it just for fun....so I will pick ARX-organ.
If I loose, than I will buy a lunch or dinner for a person I see first after all announcement. something fun....
well, lets have fun and put some money on the line. I say lets play the "ARX good faith game".
You pick one from a possibility of Choices and will find out in less than two weeks if you got it right. If they don't announce any ARX than no body looses or wins. if they do reveal any and didn't matches your choice than in good faith you buy your friend lunch or dinner or other haft, anybody, a person in your neighborhood. You choose. Its all just a though....
As for me, I will play it just for fun....so I will pick ARX-organ.
If I loose, than I will buy a lunch or dinner for a person I see first after all announcement. something fun....
Re: Musikmesse Frankfurt !
What can i say that has already been said...
Lets just make music and leave roland behind as a bad memory..
Learn the lesson and don't make the same mistake again..
Oh! looking forward to them announcing OS v3.10 on april 1st..
(but im not say which! april 1st that will be)
Well Im off to play with my G...
Lets just make music and leave roland behind as a bad memory..
Learn the lesson and don't make the same mistake again..
Oh! looking forward to them announcing OS v3.10 on april 1st..
(but im not say which! april 1st that will be)
Well Im off to play with my G...
Re: Musikmesse Frankfurt !
Quinnx you are so right.
Why wait for an upgrade, when you could be writing a hit record. If your music is good enough, maybe you could make lots of money and start your own keyboard company.
Oh, based on my success, I'd better blame the Fantom G for my lack of hit songs.
Why wait for an upgrade, when you could be writing a hit record. If your music is good enough, maybe you could make lots of money and start your own keyboard company.
Oh, based on my success, I'd better blame the Fantom G for my lack of hit songs.