I?m a little confused about A to D Converters. I?m referring to mainly the firewire/usb2.0 ones for getting audio to your computer.
1. There are so many products around it is confusing
2. Does every 24bit 96kz converter sound the same?
3. Why does an apogee mini me cost 3 times the price of an edirol and have lower specs.
4. Are integrated hardware controllers and A2D converters any good? Like the Yamaha 01X or is it better to get stand alone converters?
I know am always asking lots of questions.
Analogue to Digital Converters
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honeyshape
- Posts: 291
- Joined: 11:11, 7 November 2003
- Location: London
Re: Analogue to Digital Converters
I can give you my opinion on hardware like the 01x... since I have one that I use alongside an 01v and an i88x.
The 01x is a bit of a special case, since no other equipment currently does what it does. Whilst it is an 8 channel A/D, standalone digital mixer with 2 MFX, and a hardware controller for most major DAWs, it is the way it connects to the PC/MAC that is special. It connects via firewire, but that's not the special bit... audio, midi and wordclock can be networked over firewire with any other mLan capable gear and you use a graphical patchbay application to make all the virtual connections, which allows you to store connectionj templates, allowing you to completely repatch all your connected equipment by simply loading a new template... that's the special bit. Currently, the 01x & i88x are going for very reasonable prices in the US, but it can be a bit of a pig to install and get working for some people... it's picky about firewire chipsets.... but once working it is absoutely superb. Many people are also getting good results from alternative "all in one" packages like the Tascam FW series... but all brands will suffer from their fair share of set-up problems.
If you don't need something as complex as an 01x, then I'd go for one of the mAudio or Presonus style A/D and MIDI boxes as their drivers will be much simpler to set up and allow to just "get on with making music".
Apogee products may seem to have lower specs, but the audio and build-quality will be much better. The more expensive A/D convertors are usually more expensive due to much higher quality pre-amps and much more precise word-clocks for lower jitter.
Every 24/96 convertor won't sound the same. There are many variables involved... preamp design/quality, clock precision, PSU quality and so on... all these factors can colour the sound, though in some cases (Joe Meek products for instance) it is exactly that colouring that makes them desirable.
hope that helps!
)
Dave
http://www.drstudio.demon.co.uk/
"Musicians fall into three categories: those with a physical block, those with a mental block and those with a wooden block". Unfortunately, I'm in the 1st category!
The 01x is a bit of a special case, since no other equipment currently does what it does. Whilst it is an 8 channel A/D, standalone digital mixer with 2 MFX, and a hardware controller for most major DAWs, it is the way it connects to the PC/MAC that is special. It connects via firewire, but that's not the special bit... audio, midi and wordclock can be networked over firewire with any other mLan capable gear and you use a graphical patchbay application to make all the virtual connections, which allows you to store connectionj templates, allowing you to completely repatch all your connected equipment by simply loading a new template... that's the special bit. Currently, the 01x & i88x are going for very reasonable prices in the US, but it can be a bit of a pig to install and get working for some people... it's picky about firewire chipsets.... but once working it is absoutely superb. Many people are also getting good results from alternative "all in one" packages like the Tascam FW series... but all brands will suffer from their fair share of set-up problems.
If you don't need something as complex as an 01x, then I'd go for one of the mAudio or Presonus style A/D and MIDI boxes as their drivers will be much simpler to set up and allow to just "get on with making music".
Apogee products may seem to have lower specs, but the audio and build-quality will be much better. The more expensive A/D convertors are usually more expensive due to much higher quality pre-amps and much more precise word-clocks for lower jitter.
Every 24/96 convertor won't sound the same. There are many variables involved... preamp design/quality, clock precision, PSU quality and so on... all these factors can colour the sound, though in some cases (Joe Meek products for instance) it is exactly that colouring that makes them desirable.
hope that helps!
)Dave
http://www.drstudio.demon.co.uk/
"Musicians fall into three categories: those with a physical block, those with a mental block and those with a wooden block". Unfortunately, I'm in the 1st category!
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mickphilipps
- Posts: 147
- Joined: 09:38, 18 July 2004
- Location: Germany / Thuringia
Endless Story
Here you start, maybe, an endless Discussion like in the "Piano" Threads.
Anybody will tell you another Story. So the Industry tell us now are 24bit with 96Khz the best Level. Next Week 48bit with 192Khz, and so on the next Years, I think.
But never forget all is coming down to CD Standard 16Bit/44Khz! So the CD Standard will stay with this and you dont master to analog Tape and listen to it, nothing becomes better. Yes my Friends here in the Forum, before you will kill me, so you record with higher "Bit" and "Khz" you can hear more Frequencies and get more Headroom and so on. Thats fine, till you made an digital CD Master.
But what do we realy hear at the Time? YESSS, the damned MP3s. Everywhere and anytime, also here with our Music when we show what we have done with the Fantom.
Yes I am that only Guy who has not buyed an MP3 Player!!!
The Brandname "Apogee" is since long Times used in Prof Studios around the World and yes he has its own Price.
Try all out what you can in Shops, listen with your Ears and yes have a look on the Price, thats what I can say. And then buy what your Ears say, or your Moneypocket.
As Suggestion, I use an "M-BOX" from Digidesign with built in Apogee Inputs.
Anybody will tell you another Story. So the Industry tell us now are 24bit with 96Khz the best Level. Next Week 48bit with 192Khz, and so on the next Years, I think.
But never forget all is coming down to CD Standard 16Bit/44Khz! So the CD Standard will stay with this and you dont master to analog Tape and listen to it, nothing becomes better. Yes my Friends here in the Forum, before you will kill me, so you record with higher "Bit" and "Khz" you can hear more Frequencies and get more Headroom and so on. Thats fine, till you made an digital CD Master.
But what do we realy hear at the Time? YESSS, the damned MP3s. Everywhere and anytime, also here with our Music when we show what we have done with the Fantom.
Yes I am that only Guy who has not buyed an MP3 Player!!!
The Brandname "Apogee" is since long Times used in Prof Studios around the World and yes he has its own Price.
Try all out what you can in Shops, listen with your Ears and yes have a look on the Price, thats what I can say. And then buy what your Ears say, or your Moneypocket.
As Suggestion, I use an "M-BOX" from Digidesign with built in Apogee Inputs.
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mickphilipps
- Posts: 147
- Joined: 09:38, 18 July 2004
- Location: Germany / Thuringia
Sorry, here the numbered Answers
To Point 1: The only Way read any Information you can get and what you dont understand, ask an prof in an Music Shop or buy an Book with Specifications about all Terms.
Point 2: NO !!! Some other built in Pieces make Differences in Sound. 24bit/96Khz is only the Specification how the Signal is sampled, with what Quality.
Point 3: The Quality of the built in analog Pieces are Glass "A", it means that the used Pieces are selected in an very small Range of Differences. Not one Transistor or Resistence has NORMALY the same Worth as the next from the same Series! Edirol, AND many other dont use that Class "A" for cheap Products, they take Class "B" or "C".
If an Transistor is made by an Machine there are ever some differences in the Produkt. Some 10000 of an Milimeter from Thin-Lines in it, or the used Gold is heavier or not and so on.
And thats why the Range of the Worth, how he work, goes from higher to lower. In Class "A" that Range is very small, and that Products are handselected and proofed.
Point 4: Integrated Converters are the same like the others so they are built from the same Manufacture! So I wrote above aspecially Digidesign use Apogee Converters. The same you can buy direct from Apogee. Its less more then one Chip where the Converter built on, so he can use in different Hardware as Mixers or Converters.
You will be much surprised how many same Chip are in so many different Things like Keyboards or Mixers or any other Music Piece what you use.
Most Time you can read: "made in Japan" or "assembled in Taiwan"
Hope this Information is helping.
Point 2: NO !!! Some other built in Pieces make Differences in Sound. 24bit/96Khz is only the Specification how the Signal is sampled, with what Quality.
Point 3: The Quality of the built in analog Pieces are Glass "A", it means that the used Pieces are selected in an very small Range of Differences. Not one Transistor or Resistence has NORMALY the same Worth as the next from the same Series! Edirol, AND many other dont use that Class "A" for cheap Products, they take Class "B" or "C".
If an Transistor is made by an Machine there are ever some differences in the Produkt. Some 10000 of an Milimeter from Thin-Lines in it, or the used Gold is heavier or not and so on.
And thats why the Range of the Worth, how he work, goes from higher to lower. In Class "A" that Range is very small, and that Products are handselected and proofed.
Point 4: Integrated Converters are the same like the others so they are built from the same Manufacture! So I wrote above aspecially Digidesign use Apogee Converters. The same you can buy direct from Apogee. Its less more then one Chip where the Converter built on, so he can use in different Hardware as Mixers or Converters.
You will be much surprised how many same Chip are in so many different Things like Keyboards or Mixers or any other Music Piece what you use.
Most Time you can read: "made in Japan" or "assembled in Taiwan"
Hope this Information is helping.
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honeyshape
- Posts: 291
- Joined: 11:11, 7 November 2003
- Location: London
Re: Analogue to Digital Converters
Thanks Guys
1. So then the deciding factor of the quality is the preamp and the actual AD conversion.
2. Once an analogue audio signal becomes digital (spdif) then anyway I interface that digital signal to my computer will make no difference to the quality, correct? So if I use the digital out on my fantom etc. it will be the most pure form?
3. If I resampe a .wav in my fantom from my fantom it will be the same as recording a .wav in say cubase via my fantoms digi outs?
4. An Mbox is better than an Edriol because of the preamps. I should get an Mbox over and Edriol. (hey I would get an apogee if I had the dosh)
5. Are we splitting hairs? ? I have done a lot of work with a VS1680 at the time I thought the quality was CD at least. Now I want to remix some of my songs but the original tracks don?t have the sparkle they should. I don?t want to have the same problem 5 years down the track.
6. Hooray for patient people in the forum.
1. So then the deciding factor of the quality is the preamp and the actual AD conversion.
2. Once an analogue audio signal becomes digital (spdif) then anyway I interface that digital signal to my computer will make no difference to the quality, correct? So if I use the digital out on my fantom etc. it will be the most pure form?
3. If I resampe a .wav in my fantom from my fantom it will be the same as recording a .wav in say cubase via my fantoms digi outs?
4. An Mbox is better than an Edriol because of the preamps. I should get an Mbox over and Edriol. (hey I would get an apogee if I had the dosh)
5. Are we splitting hairs? ? I have done a lot of work with a VS1680 at the time I thought the quality was CD at least. Now I want to remix some of my songs but the original tracks don?t have the sparkle they should. I don?t want to have the same problem 5 years down the track.
6. Hooray for patient people in the forum.
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mickphilipps
- Posts: 147
- Joined: 09:38, 18 July 2004
- Location: Germany / Thuringia
Answers II
1. YES !
2. YES !
3. YES ! ( I dont know, and hear, any Difference )
4. MAYBE ! I dont know exactly what Edirol built in the Interfaces. The Main Point is that the Mbox has only 2 Inputs for recording (analog with Apogee/Mic/Line/Instrument, and digital with SPDIF). If you will record at one Time more then two Signals, you must go to another like Edirol and so on. Or Yamaha like "dboulden" explained.
5. To that Theme, anyone will become earlier or later to "splitting Hairs".
5b. The "VS1680" has differend selectable Qualitys to record an Analog Signal. So you can select how many Space on your Harddisk will used by the Tracks. More, better Quality, more MBs are used. Dont know exactly but it goes till 24Bit and 48Khz? If you select an "flat" Quality Record Mode ( It means that there is an Compression of Audio Datas, like MP3 does), you get an "non-sparkeld" Sound.
6. Thanks fo the "Hooray"!
2. YES !
3. YES ! ( I dont know, and hear, any Difference )
4. MAYBE ! I dont know exactly what Edirol built in the Interfaces. The Main Point is that the Mbox has only 2 Inputs for recording (analog with Apogee/Mic/Line/Instrument, and digital with SPDIF). If you will record at one Time more then two Signals, you must go to another like Edirol and so on. Or Yamaha like "dboulden" explained.
5. To that Theme, anyone will become earlier or later to "splitting Hairs".
5b. The "VS1680" has differend selectable Qualitys to record an Analog Signal. So you can select how many Space on your Harddisk will used by the Tracks. More, better Quality, more MBs are used. Dont know exactly but it goes till 24Bit and 48Khz? If you select an "flat" Quality Record Mode ( It means that there is an Compression of Audio Datas, like MP3 does), you get an "non-sparkeld" Sound.
6. Thanks fo the "Hooray"!
Re: Analogue to Digital Converters
Just a note to say I agree with Mick's response.
Once a recording is digital... the actual sound should remain exactly as is when transferring digitally. There are, however, one or two situations where there might be very slight alterations in the sound, and that is when sample rate or bit-depth is changed... i.e. between 44.1kHz and 48kHz (or the corresponding 88.2 and 96) and changes between 16bit and 24 bit.
Most DAW packages will work with 24bit sound internally (some even 32bit for FX processing and mixing) as it gives a much better headroom, but will always be dithered down to 16bit for CD burning (regard audio dithering as analogous to "Anti Aliasing" of screen fonts on PCs).
However, whilst some people may be able to tell the difference between 96kHz audio and 44.1kHz audio (mostly in the "psychacoustical" range of effects) far fewer people are likely to have the equipment or suitably set-up listening space to appreciate or notice the difference.
Most A/D boxes from well known manufacturers (Edirol, Presonus, mAudio, RME, Tascam and many more) will give you a very acceptable sound. So after that point your decision will probably be based more on which facilities you require: number of inputs and outputs, built in MIDI port(s), external wordclock I/O, does it have suitable low-latency direct audio drivers for your chosen DAW (ASIO, GSIF, WDM), phantom powered mic channels, balanaced/unbalanced.
)
Dave
http://www.drstudio.demon.co.uk/
"Musicians fall into three categories: those with a physical block, those with a mental block and those with a wooden block". Unfortunately, I'm in the 1st category!
Once a recording is digital... the actual sound should remain exactly as is when transferring digitally. There are, however, one or two situations where there might be very slight alterations in the sound, and that is when sample rate or bit-depth is changed... i.e. between 44.1kHz and 48kHz (or the corresponding 88.2 and 96) and changes between 16bit and 24 bit.
Most DAW packages will work with 24bit sound internally (some even 32bit for FX processing and mixing) as it gives a much better headroom, but will always be dithered down to 16bit for CD burning (regard audio dithering as analogous to "Anti Aliasing" of screen fonts on PCs).
However, whilst some people may be able to tell the difference between 96kHz audio and 44.1kHz audio (mostly in the "psychacoustical" range of effects) far fewer people are likely to have the equipment or suitably set-up listening space to appreciate or notice the difference.
Most A/D boxes from well known manufacturers (Edirol, Presonus, mAudio, RME, Tascam and many more) will give you a very acceptable sound. So after that point your decision will probably be based more on which facilities you require: number of inputs and outputs, built in MIDI port(s), external wordclock I/O, does it have suitable low-latency direct audio drivers for your chosen DAW (ASIO, GSIF, WDM), phantom powered mic channels, balanaced/unbalanced.
)Dave
http://www.drstudio.demon.co.uk/
"Musicians fall into three categories: those with a physical block, those with a mental block and those with a wooden block". Unfortunately, I'm in the 1st category!
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mickphilipps
- Posts: 147
- Joined: 09:38, 18 July 2004
- Location: Germany / Thuringia
Sorry, Big Mistake
In the Mbox are FOCUSRITE Preamps and no Apogee!!!
I confues with another Interface I use here in the Studio, sorry!
I just read an Article about an brandnew Interface named: "SAFFIRE" by Focusrite. It is Firewire 400 connectable and has Onboardprocessing some integrated Plugins. Just about 550.- Euro. Have a Look on it.
Go to www.focusrite.com and search for SAFFIRE. There you find many more Information.
And yes, I must say it has more as my Mbox, grrrrrrr
(
I confues with another Interface I use here in the Studio, sorry!
I just read an Article about an brandnew Interface named: "SAFFIRE" by Focusrite. It is Firewire 400 connectable and has Onboardprocessing some integrated Plugins. Just about 550.- Euro. Have a Look on it.
Go to www.focusrite.com and search for SAFFIRE. There you find many more Information.
And yes, I must say it has more as my Mbox, grrrrrrr
(-
honeyshape
- Posts: 291
- Joined: 11:11, 7 November 2003
- Location: London
Re: Analogue to Digital Converters
Thanks for all your wise jedi advice. I'll check out that focusrite saffire. 2 more questions
1. This diffrence of Firewire 400 and 800.
2. When and why would I need to use word clock? I presume it is to sync the bit rate of the sending to the clock of the recieveing. Doesn't SPDIF lock it self?
1. This diffrence of Firewire 400 and 800.
2. When and why would I need to use word clock? I presume it is to sync the bit rate of the sending to the clock of the recieveing. Doesn't SPDIF lock it self?
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mickphilipps
- Posts: 147
- Joined: 09:38, 18 July 2004
- Location: Germany / Thuringia
New Answers
1: 800 is faster, better said the bandwith is bigger, then 400.
2: Most digital mixers and other Digi Equipment use World Clock to stay together at the same Sample Rate and Deep. It is a Syncronizing Standard founded together from Manufactures of digital Equipment, as Yamaha, Roland and much more. Like the MIDI Protocoll.
If you will record, out of Fantom to PC or MAC with an Interface like Mbox or SAFFIRE, youn can take SPDIF and dont think about World Clock Format. Only if you will combine more differend Engines together as Mixers, Reverbs and HD Recording Software, then you have to syncronize them all together.
2: Most digital mixers and other Digi Equipment use World Clock to stay together at the same Sample Rate and Deep. It is a Syncronizing Standard founded together from Manufactures of digital Equipment, as Yamaha, Roland and much more. Like the MIDI Protocoll.
If you will record, out of Fantom to PC or MAC with an Interface like Mbox or SAFFIRE, youn can take SPDIF and dont think about World Clock Format. Only if you will combine more differend Engines together as Mixers, Reverbs and HD Recording Software, then you have to syncronize them all together.
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William Coakley
- Posts: 164
- Joined: 15:48, 20 July 2005
honeyshape
There is an article on my site about how to listen to converters. Don't pay any attention to specs they're all within a dB or two of the same thing. I use an Apogee Rosetta 800 and at 44.1 it has much better sound than my RME converters do. But at 96K the gap narrows a bit since anti aliasing isn't an issue. But I have an overkill system because I do sound design and I have to have the best. But for regular production work you don't need to get quite as exotic although remember one thing... EVERYTHING that your sound is has to do with the quality of converters you use.
Check out the article
http://www.williamcoakley.com/articles. ... =index.php
and I'll check back from time to time
Check out the article
http://www.williamcoakley.com/articles. ... =index.php
and I'll check back from time to time
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honeyshape
- Posts: 291
- Joined: 11:11, 7 November 2003
- Location: London
Re: Analogue to Digital Converters
William - I read it all, I will use your advice.
Mick - I looked up the SAFFIRE - looks good. I go and check one out for real.
I've learnt a lot from this thread. Thanks guys!
Mick - I looked up the SAFFIRE - looks good. I go and check one out for real.
I've learnt a lot from this thread. Thanks guys!
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honeyshape
- Posts: 291
- Joined: 11:11, 7 November 2003
- Location: London
Re: Analogue to Digital Converters
Hey mickphilipps, just bought a Focusrite Saffire. Thanks for the advice.
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William Coakley
- Posts: 164
- Joined: 15:48, 20 July 2005
adjusting levels
In some converters, you can adjust the input levels to match your equipment. You might want to ask about that or if you've already bought, check your manual. If you have any questions, you can contact me at
info@williamcoakley.com
William
williamcoakley.com
info@williamcoakley.com
William
williamcoakley.com
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honeyshape
- Posts: 291
- Joined: 11:11, 7 November 2003
- Location: London
Re: Analogue to Digital Converters
Hi William,
Yes you can adjust the input levels via the software on the analogue inputs. I think the spdif is fix. (is that what you ment?)
I bought it last friday. It's the right box for me. decent mic preamps and DSP's. It cost me ?330 which suits me (I would like to go for the apogee stuff but for the ?$?$ - ah no.) I'm sure my ears could only spot the diffrence in a controlled AB situation if that. - Your ears are probably better trained than mind, doing all that piano sampling etc.
Yes you can adjust the input levels via the software on the analogue inputs. I think the spdif is fix. (is that what you ment?)
I bought it last friday. It's the right box for me. decent mic preamps and DSP's. It cost me ?330 which suits me (I would like to go for the apogee stuff but for the ?$?$ - ah no.) I'm sure my ears could only spot the diffrence in a controlled AB situation if that. - Your ears are probably better trained than mind, doing all that piano sampling etc.