Important History Lesson for all Americans

[EJ2]

I can't resist jumping in here. Thunder, how many people around the globe do you think would agree with you? Not many. In fact, the majority would agree with Orwell's points and not yours.

The right wing element in the USA is taking the world down the gutter and they blindly effuse themselves as the vanguard of democracy, that they are purging the world to bring life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness to all. What a pile of bullshit!!! Nothing could be further from the truth. Even the power brokers trying to sell this spin to the American populace and the rest of the world know this is bullshit. But that's the pretense that they try to feed us. I don't believe it for one second.

Too many decent Americans have been bamboozled into believing this lie. They suck up progaganda like Pepsi. It's not about freedom and justice for all. It's about greed, corporate dominance and bottom line profit margins. You and others like you have been duped. And now your leaders have stirred up more than one hornets nest that could very well spell the doom of the planet.

If a poll was conducted in the so called "Free" democracies outside of America as to the one person deemed to be the most dangerous, the good people of America would be shocked to learn that it is none other than Bush. These are the sentiments around the globe. If you and the decent citizens of the United States only knew how damaged your image is.

However genuine and sincere Bush and his team may think they are they have failed and will continue to fail in convincing the rest of the world that they are true. We don't trust the veracity of their words. And that fact will never change so long as Bush remains in office. The damage has been done and it is final.

So, the rest of the world sits and waits till this regime completes it's time. Hopefully, by next election America will have realized what has happened and change course. But, I doubt it. Your system, and I might add too many other Oligarchies pretending to be Democracies, are too entrenched in the myth, the big lie, "My country right or wrong....with liberty and justice for all...." Bullshit! You can't even take care of your own poor and destitute. And the greatest Mass Destruction goes on every day in your own cities. That's the war Bush should be fighting.

As for the Jihadists, the fanatical Muslims, those fuckers coming at us from a different direction, a different ideology (theology), together with Bush and his gang could very well lead to the destruction of civilization. All it will take is one vengeful dirty bomb or chemical or biological weapon that wipes out a major metropolitan center in North America, and the annihilation will begin.

We are fearful because we smell Armageddon brewing.

Oh, for a true enlightened democratic world with liberty and justice for all - in fact, not in empty words.

Eric

Check out EJ2's Gallery of Sounds at http://2ej2.tripod.com/

[Radon_22]

"If a poll was conducted in the so called "Free" democracies outside of America as to the one person deemed to be the most dangerous, the good people of America would be shocked to learn that it is none other than Bush."

But this is exactly how Europe responded to Reagan.



"As for the Jihadists, the fanatical Muslims, those f**** coming at us from a different direction, a different ideology (theology), together with Bush and his gang could very well lead to the destruction of civilization. "

So the Jihadists started during the reign of Bush the 2nd? What about the *first* World Trade Center bombing? The USS Cole? The embassy bombings in Africa? Just to name few.




"Oh, for a true enlightened democratic world with liberty and justice for all - in fact, not in empty words."

How exactly have your liberties been *directly* affected? I'm not talking in theory or about some guy you heard about in the news. What exactly has happened that has affected your daily life during this administration? I'm curious.

[orwell_]

"When Fascism comes to America, it won't be with goose-stepping soldiers, but instead it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a Bible. " --CGREEN
Amen

Radon, I think what EJ2 meant was to say that Bush and the Jihadists are playing right into eachother.

It seems that every move bush makes is the wrong move. You can say what you want about Michael Moore but he did bring up some interesting facts. One such fact is that the US only put 11,000 troops into Afghanistan, there are more Police in NYC!!

Bush should have gone after Osama instead of going into IRAQ. Bush is actually quoted as saying "Osama doesn't matter to us" I mean what the FUCK man.

But never mind the fact that terrorist cells are like the greek hydra. You cut off one head and two more sprout up in it's plzce. The US will never stop terrorism.

I don't even think they want to. Think about the billions of dollars this war is generating.

Oil is $60 a barrel, thats great news for exxon and Haliburton,
Sikorsky and boeing must be making a fortune on the blackhawk and apache.
GM must be making a fortune on humvees
Colt must be making a fortune on M16/M4 assault rifles
goodyear must be making a fortune selling tires to the military's aircraft and vehicles
GE must be making a fortune selling propaganda time on NBC
Not to mention their involvment in the B2 Bomber manufacturing
Lockheed must be loving the newfound hate for america: another reason to pursue the expensive and IMPOTENT National Missile Defence program

The list goes on.

If you think those companies have no part in the formulation of this warmongering foreign policy, than you are nuts. MONEY MONEY MONEY.

you know who else wins from the war in iraq? OSAMA.

You think Osama is stupid? he wants his own army. He knew that 9/11 would make the US GO CRAZY. He knew that they US would do some crazy shit to radicalize more Islamic moderate and bring them under OSAMA's wing.

Every move bush make helps Osama's army grow.

The only way for the end of terror to come about is to STOP FUCKING WITH THE ARABS. You've been fucking them for years, they are sick of it. Stop fucking with them and they'll stop fucking with you...

[orwell_]

oh and radon, second question, patriot act.

This allows the us to look up my canadian hospital records.
it allows them to tap myphone with no warrent
they almost got the right to look up your library card to see what you are reading
they can follow you and put cameras in your house 'on suspicion'

how about RENDERING? ever heard of that?
yeah they can arrest you with NO charges, ship you off to syria, and have you tortured to within an inch of your life.

all under SUSPICION. where is your constitution there? I have a right to be free and this administration is stripping that away from you AND me, in a foreign country.

Maher Arar is a Canadian citizern and a VICTIM of AMERICAN RENDERING.

READ THIS, IT COULD HAPPEN TO YOU!!!!!
READ THIS, IT COULD HAPPEN TO YOU!!!!!
READ THIS, IT COULD HAPPEN TO YOU!!!!!
READ THIS, IT COULD HAPPEN TO YOU!!!!!


http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/arar/

[Radon_22]

"Radon, I think what EJ2 meant was to say that Bush and the Jihadists are playing right into eachother. "

Maybe. It still doesn't answer the question: have there been more terror attacks since Bush came into office? We act as if terror attacks against the U.S. started on Sept 11, 2001. The Jihadists have hated America long before Bush took office: at least as far back as the late 70's there has been a concerted teaching in madrassas across the Middle East and Asia that America is the "great satan".



"One such fact is that the US only put 11,000 troops into Afghanistan, there are more Police in NYC!! "

True. And yet the majority of them were around the mountain ranges where the Taliban holed up. Afganistan is under much better controll than Iraq, with fewer troops.


"Bush is actually quoted as saying "Osama doesn't matter to us""

I believe the actual quote was "I don't know where he is. I -- I'll repeat what I said. I truly am not that concerned about him. I know he is on the run. I was concerned about him, when he had taken over a country." *Big* difference in meaning.


"But never mind the fact that terrorist cells are like the greek hydra. You cut off one head and two more sprout up in it's plzce. The US will never stop terrorism."

Then let's wave the white flag and surrender now. I certainly don't have the answers to what will work. But I know what won't: Doing absolutely nothing. We did that for over 12 years, and we see what that got us.


"If you think those companies have no part in the formulation of this warmongering foreign policy, than you are nuts."

You could be totally right. But then again, where is your proof? Maybe, just maybe, there are other reasons that people go to war.



"You think Osama is stupid? he wants his own army. He knew that 9/11 would make the US GO CRAZY. Every move bush make helps Osama's army grow. "

Interesting hypothesis. Any data for that? He had his own army- his own country, in Afghanistan.


"The only way for the end of terror to come about is to STOP F*** WITH THE ARABS. You've been f*** them for years, they are sick of it."

I would encourage you to study the history of the Middle East, particularly the late 60's through late 80's. Also, it seems a bit presumtuous to speak for all Arabs: several countries actually have rather warm relations with the US, and I'm not talking about Pakistan or Saudi Arabia.


"yeah they can arrest you with NO charges, ship you off to syria, and have you tortured to within an inch of your life. all under SUSPICION. where is your constitution there? I have a right to be free and this administration is stripping that away from you AND me, in a foreign country. "

Last time I checked, Canada was a sovereign country, independent of the US.



I have followed the case of Arar that you mentioned. I would agree it sounds like a horrible situation. However, none of us know all of the facts. One group portrays him as a family man falsely accused. Another group states that he had known ties to terror groups. Who's right? In addition, this was an immigration decision, not an excecutive one. Regardless, Arar maintained dual citizenship: he was a citizen of the country he was sent to. So technically, a Syrian was deported to Syria. Not the choice I would have made, but...


Radon_22

[orwell_]

I am Canadian, i know I'm not American.

I meant, although i didn't articulate it, that it can happen and does happen in the US, Canada, Britan ect.

It is a fact that terror attacks have gone up since Bush. Of that there is no question. Furthermore, terror attacks have increased most remarkably since the invasion of Iraq.

With my Hydra comment and the associated rant, I meant to point out that terror is an undefeatable foe. No I don't mean for the US to waive the white flag. But for your leaders to say that the jihadists are attacking "who you are and what you stand for" is rediculas.

They attack you because you meddle in their affairs. Infact, you meddle in everyones affairs. Look at Panama, Nicargua, Afghanistan, Iran, Cuba, this list goes on and on.

Playing global chess was most definatly a neccessity of coldwar tention. But the cold war is over. I think it is an irresponsible victor in a unipolar world who denys the death and destruction they have caused and seeks to reimburse no one.

I don't like Osama, I don't like what he is doing. Killing americans and britons and spanish is wrong. But do you see a corelation at all? How made Canadians or Swiss or French are being targeted. None to my knowledge.

Why? we don't FUCK with people.

I know my country needs a larger military. As a military brat I belive Canada has fallen behind on its military spending and its international commitments. We need a larger force, there is no question.

But the difference is that a Canadian force, regardless of size, will never be deployed as an aggressor force.

We keep peace.

That is why Canada went to Afghanistan. We saw the Taliban's support for al-Quida. We recognized that such terrorist support was contrary to the maintainance of peace and thus, we sent troops to die in that country. We DID NOT go to Iraq.

We did not do this because the legal requirments neccissary for war did not exist. The U.N. sanctions were working, regardless of what the right says.

[Jost]

GregC, here in Australia everyone is against Bush, except Prime Minister John Howard (also referred to as 'Howard the Coward'). Most Aussies feel very, very sorry for you unfortunate Americans to have such wrong President for such difficult times. Its a pity you can't have someone like Gorbachev...

[GregC]

yes, Jost, many American voters were duped in the last election.

Plus a fraction of the $300 billion spent in Iraq could have made our country much more secure from al Qaeda.

Plus if Bushco wasn't such a puppet to the PNAC agenda, we would not have pulled most of our troops out of Afgahanistan for an insane political war in Iraq. We should have kept the focus of our military in Afghanistan and root out the Taliban and al Qaeda.

You righties don't have to take my word for it. I read it from experts:

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f ... DJFBF1.DTL

GregC

[orwell_]

I think you would enjoy this article. I am not familiar with PNAC but from what you are saying, I beleive this article has alot to do with your writings.

I found it very informative and distressing. I know you'll like it.

It's about Wolfowitz and Defense policy.

http://www.amconmag.com/2005_06_06/article1.html

[GregC]

"The forces that Paul Wolfowitz helped unleash?a dangerous combination of hubris and na?vet??are exacting an ever mounting cost. His considerable exertions notwithstanding, truth in matters of statecraft remains implacably gray. Even assuming honorable intentions on the part of those who conceived this war, wielding power in Iraq has left the United States up to its ankles, if not up to its knees, in guilt.

In his solitude, General Shinseki can await the final judgment of history with considerable confidence. At the pinnacle of professional success, Paul Wolfowitz must look forward to a different verdict that will be anything but kind."

Excellent article, orwell. It points out that many fallacies and weaknesses of the PNAC agenda and the ruinous execution by its perpetrators.

This is not our grandfathers republican party

GregC

[honeyshape]

Just of the topic for a second - Why is Bushes nick name Dubya?

[thunderkyss]

to differentiate him from the old man. Jr is George W. Bush, so people just call him W.


FantomS
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registered 21 May 2003

tundrkys98@yahoo.com Yahoo messenger: tundrkys98

[thunderkyss]

"I don't like Osama, I don't like what he is doing. Killing americans and britons and spanish is wrong. But do you see a corelation at all? How made Canadians or Swiss or French are being targeted. None to my knowledge.

Why? we don't FUCK with people.

I know my country needs a larger military. As a military brat I belive Canada has fallen behind on its military spending and its international commitments. We need a larger force, there is no question.

But the difference is that a Canadian force, regardless of size, will never be deployed as an aggressor force.

We keep peace.

That is why Canada went to Afghanistan. We saw the Taliban's support for al-Quida. We recognized that such terrorist support was contrary to the maintainance of peace and thus, we sent troops to die in that country. We DID NOT go to Iraq.

We did not do this because the legal requirments neccissary for war did not exist. The U.N. sanctions were working, regardless of what the right says."
====================================

Best post I've seen in this thread, Really good points.

The only problem I have, is that we didn't know the sanctions were working, till after we went in. I personally wouldn't take the word of a madman.


FantomS
AW4416
Now all I need is talent.
Anyone selling any talent??
member # 55
registered 21 May 2003

tundrkys98@yahoo.com Yahoo messenger: tundrkys98

[Rebel J]

It is humorous to me when people from the (communist/socialist) supported left in the US try to portray Bush and others as power hungry. I guess this will be his legacy to all who would live in the fantasy world of Marx. The truth is that Utopia doesn't exist and never has after the Garden of Eden and, as long as man has sin, true Peace can only be enforced.

If we leave the Arab countries alone...(that means stop our aid to the citizens that have actually asked for our help) as well as the politcal interests, do you really think the Al-Qaeda regiment will really leave the worlds largest Super Power alone? The "terrorists" are simply pist off that we stand up against tyranny and interfere with there quest for power. They are using Allah like the Romans used Christ early on. Faith can be a great motivator of man and these less advanced parts of the world are suseptible to corruption and tyrants who claim to be on a quest for thier 'God'. We stand in thier way. Sounds like we need to be thier to me. Prove me wrong.

We are good hearted God fearing people that do what we can and what we think is right. Let the conspiracy theories end and start looking at the big picture. If we all sit back and let our interns cob the knob then we might as well turn the keys over to "Osama" types. Sometimes we have to do things that aren't pretty to achieve change. We ARE seeing change and unfortunately we will have mud/blood on our hands until history shows our children the truth. We aren't blindly following Bush, I voted for him because he is not afraid to do what he feels is right. He makes mistakes but at least he IS doing something...

Rebel without Applause.

[audiogal]

And maybe I'm out of line being a new member and all that, but I've just got to poke my nose in here for a second.

Having an education helps if you want to discuss these kinds of things. It is isn't necessary, everybody is entitled to their opinion, right? But you'd have to admit that there is a difference between an opinion and an informed opinion.

I have degrees in History and Psychology, if that helps anybody see where I am coming from.

I see a lot of paranoid self-validating delusions at work here. And I also see a wee spot of selective history going on as well.

Canada doesn't "F" with other countries? Oh God, just go back to school or go get a refund from the one you attended! Ever hear of French Canadian complicity in Algeria, Congo, Benin, Chad, and so on for almost a hundred years? That damns France in the same breath in case you aren't paying attention.

Of course, Canada was also complicit in British colonial interests in Botswana, Egypt, Gambia, etc., (and let's not forget India) having the strange position of supporting to two biggest colonial thugs on the planet at the same time!

Current Canadian "economic assistance" is really just exactly the same kind of business interests that people are complaining about when it comes to the U.S. Please don't pretend or be fooled otherwise.

So who are we pointing fingers at here?