I would just like to say that I am a fan of the Roland product line, but I am getting SICK of being ripped off totally, just because I happen to live in a country with a strong currency (the Euro).
Just for instance, in the United States, people can buy the SRX sound cards for $250 through most outlets (one of the largest chains, Guitar Center, is offering them for $200! see below). People living in Europe, however, have to pay the ridiculous sum of 279 Euros for these products. With the exchange rate at 1.42 dollars per Euro now, that is $390!!!!!!!!!
In fact, in the Roland product family, ALL products cost the same in Euros as they do in dollars! Or are even MORE expensive! Right now, for instance, the Fantom X7 costs the equivalent of around $3150 through most Internet retailers here. I don't know for sure what it is in the US, but I see some going for $2400.
As an American living in Germany, I for one find it unconscionable that Roland would gouge the European market just because our currency is stronger. I am sick of it and am doing anything I can to get around this ridiculous pricing policy. I am fortunate enough to have many friends and family in the United States who come and visit me regularly, and in three weeks, I will be getting my hands on two SRX sound cards a buddy is bringing with him for a 40% discount off of European prices.
This is RIDICULOUS AND HAS TO STOP! I for one am considering taking my business elsewhere.
Europeans are not here to subsidize American consumers just because a few wars and poor economic policy have put the dollar in a tail spin. Are we second class customers in Roland's eyes? People worth gouging? Most Europeans are having as hard of a time getting by as Americans. We are not "rich" over here. In fact, we have slightly less buying power. So WHY gouge us?
European Roland Customers getting RIPPED OFF!
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barbarossa0067
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Re: European Roland Customers getting RIPPED OFF!
Same pricing is seen for most if not all products. For example, Apple's Macs cost the same in US dollars in US and in Euros in Europe. I am not sure what it has to do with, but definitely not just a pricing policy. Perhaps in Europe we have to take VAT into account.
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barbarossa0067
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- Joined: 20:17, 26 September 2007
Re: European Roland Customers getting RIPPED OFF!
Artemio... I agree. I also forgot about the fact that sales tax is not included in American prices. But VAT (Value Added Tax) is included by law in German prices. So, with tax, the $250 sound card is $270 in the United States. European prices do take VAT into account (the rough equivalent of US sales tax). So the proper comparison would be $270 in the US to $390 in Europe.
These products are not made in the United States, so the idea that "shipping" costs are the difference would be nonsense.
One possibility is a difference in import taxes? But with the dollar sliding so quickly, it is time for an adjustment. 40% is simply outrageous.
As it is, ALL of my music and consumer electronics equipment comes from the United States. All of it. I guess I am just upset, because I know so many people here in Europe who have to buy at these ridiculous prices, even though they already have less buying power than in the United States.
I have a feeling they are charging what the market will bear. What it is used to paying. Maybe they think if they charge less for it, people will perceive it as being lower quality (as a marketing major, I know companies play these games).
Peace to you. ;D
These products are not made in the United States, so the idea that "shipping" costs are the difference would be nonsense.
One possibility is a difference in import taxes? But with the dollar sliding so quickly, it is time for an adjustment. 40% is simply outrageous.
As it is, ALL of my music and consumer electronics equipment comes from the United States. All of it. I guess I am just upset, because I know so many people here in Europe who have to buy at these ridiculous prices, even though they already have less buying power than in the United States.
I have a feeling they are charging what the market will bear. What it is used to paying. Maybe they think if they charge less for it, people will perceive it as being lower quality (as a marketing major, I know companies play these games).
Peace to you. ;D
Re: European Roland Customers getting RIPPED OFF!
don't worry, EURO will go down soon...
its temporary gain against dollar is only because that idiot bush.
its temporary gain against dollar is only because that idiot bush.
Re: European Roland Customers getting RIPPED OFF!
think about the iPhone: $399 in the US, and it will cost 399 euros, while, at the current exchange rate, it should cost 283 euros.
Think about digital cameras: the same problem.
And it's not only Roland, but every manufacturer.
We have a stronger currency, but this just means that we're paying goods 40% more.
Think about digital cameras: the same problem.
And it's not only Roland, but every manufacturer.
We have a stronger currency, but this just means that we're paying goods 40% more.
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barbarossa0067
- Posts: 13
- Joined: 20:17, 26 September 2007
Re: European Roland Customers getting RIPPED OFF!
I agree on the IPhone and more. I am sick of it. I mean, SICK of it. I think someone needs to start a consumer group and boycott to change something. Again, as an American living in Europe, I really see the double standard. There is no reason for there to be a 40% difference! I mean, talk about gouging! Here is what is really crazy. Most of my income is tied to the American dollar, and I have to spend it over here in Europe at a 40% loss.
Again, remember, the US prices NEVER include their sales tax. This varies from state to state, but will be between 5% to 10% or more depending on where you are. So it is unfair to directly compare. However, this puts it at a 30 to 35% difference. PLUS, the way the laws are in the United States, you don't pay sales tax on most things you purchase in the Internet. So there really is a 40% difference in those cases.
Again, remember, the US prices NEVER include their sales tax. This varies from state to state, but will be between 5% to 10% or more depending on where you are. So it is unfair to directly compare. However, this puts it at a 30 to 35% difference. PLUS, the way the laws are in the United States, you don't pay sales tax on most things you purchase in the Internet. So there really is a 40% difference in those cases.
Re: European Roland Customers getting RIPPED OFF!
Even European VAT is far from being an explanation for the problem, which is clearly in the range of ripping without any reason.
Even 20% in Germany are far from the impertinent 40% margin which is typical for impertinent price differences between Europe and US. And these more or less exist since many years.
Already in former years it was silly to see that the average income in the US was significantly higher than in Europe, while the prices for the same international products were relatively *much* more expensive in Europe. It meant that anybody living in the US had a double advantage: having higher income plus playing less for the same products.
I don't know yet who exactly is cheating customers with a well working mechanism here, but I'm sure that it is pure cheating and ripping far from any reasonable explanation: Some people and/or companies in Europe and/or in the rest of the world are making usury profit while being long time parasites at the cost of European customers.
I hope we will find ways to blow their kind of business!
Even 20% in Germany are far from the impertinent 40% margin which is typical for impertinent price differences between Europe and US. And these more or less exist since many years.
Already in former years it was silly to see that the average income in the US was significantly higher than in Europe, while the prices for the same international products were relatively *much* more expensive in Europe. It meant that anybody living in the US had a double advantage: having higher income plus playing less for the same products.
I don't know yet who exactly is cheating customers with a well working mechanism here, but I'm sure that it is pure cheating and ripping far from any reasonable explanation: Some people and/or companies in Europe and/or in the rest of the world are making usury profit while being long time parasites at the cost of European customers.
I hope we will find ways to blow their kind of business!
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barbarossa0067
- Posts: 13
- Joined: 20:17, 26 September 2007
Re: European Roland Customers getting RIPPED OFF!
Jimknopf ;D
The only reason they get away with it is because consumers let them get away with it. Somehow the market supports these prices. However, I have often thought they would sell higher numbers IF they dropped their prices to US equivalents.
Long and short of it, I fail to understand why hard working Europeans should get RIPPED OFF by a company like Roland when they can get their money from Americans just as well!!!!!!!
The people in Japan need to make money. But I say, whether a Fantom is sold in the US or Europe, it should be very close to the SAME amount of YEN that is made. Now, IF they need to charge a little extra for import taxes or whatever, fine.
I have written the marketing, sales, and customer support department at Roland Germany a very terse letter demanding to know why they treat their German customers so badly, and have asked them to forward it on to Japan if they need to. But we want an answer. Period.
Interestingly enough, the board game industry is the same. However, at least in Europe the quality of the components is MUCH better than in the US. But in the electronics industry an SRX sound card is an SRX sound card. And I don't care how cool you make it sound, it is the same thing they are buying in the United States for 40% less! It's NOT like they are putting better parts in.
Like I said, I am a marketing major, and you charge what the market can bear. Ideally, you have two prices for everything. One for price sensitive customers, and one for price insensitive customers. That way you can sell it all to more people. I guess they think that Europeans are more price insensitive than Americans, and thus, they can rip us off. These kinds of pricing games really DO exist.
It is time to stop the systematic pillaging of Europeans so others can have MORE! And that is what this is. Pillaging.
The only reason they get away with it is because consumers let them get away with it. Somehow the market supports these prices. However, I have often thought they would sell higher numbers IF they dropped their prices to US equivalents.
Long and short of it, I fail to understand why hard working Europeans should get RIPPED OFF by a company like Roland when they can get their money from Americans just as well!!!!!!!
The people in Japan need to make money. But I say, whether a Fantom is sold in the US or Europe, it should be very close to the SAME amount of YEN that is made. Now, IF they need to charge a little extra for import taxes or whatever, fine.
I have written the marketing, sales, and customer support department at Roland Germany a very terse letter demanding to know why they treat their German customers so badly, and have asked them to forward it on to Japan if they need to. But we want an answer. Period.
Interestingly enough, the board game industry is the same. However, at least in Europe the quality of the components is MUCH better than in the US. But in the electronics industry an SRX sound card is an SRX sound card. And I don't care how cool you make it sound, it is the same thing they are buying in the United States for 40% less! It's NOT like they are putting better parts in.
Like I said, I am a marketing major, and you charge what the market can bear. Ideally, you have two prices for everything. One for price sensitive customers, and one for price insensitive customers. That way you can sell it all to more people. I guess they think that Europeans are more price insensitive than Americans, and thus, they can rip us off. These kinds of pricing games really DO exist.
It is time to stop the systematic pillaging of Europeans so others can have MORE! And that is what this is. Pillaging.
Re: European Roland Customers getting RIPPED OFF!
Not to make you guys feel bad or anything, but GC sells SRX boards for $200 all day... (got both 07 and 08 for $216 with tax each)... My sales rep showed me the cost screen, and retailer cost is $170. Ouch.
Chris
Chris
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barbarossa0067
- Posts: 13
- Joined: 20:17, 26 September 2007
Re: European Roland Customers getting RIPPED OFF!
Thanks for the tip! I want to have some friends bring me some of them over. ;D That is how I am gonna do business from now on. I am sick of this crap. And if anyone in Germany needs any, let me know. I'll pay the import taxes and make a killing (that is just a joke). ;D
Re: European Roland Customers getting RIPPED OFF!
Barbarossa: first, I agree with your sentiment. But lets talk about this for a moment.
The great and mighty EU decides to tax anything via import duty, this varies by product, but goes from roughly 2-10%. Then, we add VAT to the whole. I'm in the UK, and thus on a Roland type product, it generally adds 22.5% -25% on to the price.
If you're looking at importing something, then you'll need to pay carriage, insurance, courrier fees again (they charge extra for dealing with customs when it reaches your country), then import tax, then VAT on the whole lot. This leads to about a 33 - 35% increase in cost - so not really much of a difference in the end. So you probably won't end up making a killing. If you try to avoid any of the above (well the last two) - it's fraud and not worth taking the risk unless you're a carreer criminal - and these poeple do it in much simpler but smarter ways!
Roland is not the only one to play this game, they all do. I've got to admit though, it's even more confusing now because of the weak dollar. Example, Roland products made in Japan and sold to the US and EU in YEN. This should make the product far more expensive in the US since you have to spend more (weak) US dollars than the (strong) Euro to buy the products from Japan. Product should be cheaper in Europe. That's not the case and it seems the currency fluctuations can be absorbed. Maket size may also play a part.
Even with import tax and VAT, that leaves only one other avenue. The Roland distribution network is seriously more inefficeint or greedy than the one in the US. This network provides all the support etc. required to back the product up. I can't see that they should be a huge difference. That just leaves as you've indicated, a degree of price fixing and 'ripping off' going on. Without looking at all the accounts, it's impossible to tell, but it is WELL WORTH the investigation. Just to re-iterate Roland aren't the only ones - collusion is illegal in the EU (anti-monopoly laws) and I find it just too much of a conincidence that both Korg and Yam's new boards are priced identically - and that represents about a 10% increase from where they were last time. I'm sure Roland will follow suit next year.
One good thing though, European products in the US are more expensive or level pegging including taking the weak dollar into account - take a look at anything by RME for example.
Steve
The great and mighty EU decides to tax anything via import duty, this varies by product, but goes from roughly 2-10%. Then, we add VAT to the whole. I'm in the UK, and thus on a Roland type product, it generally adds 22.5% -25% on to the price.
If you're looking at importing something, then you'll need to pay carriage, insurance, courrier fees again (they charge extra for dealing with customs when it reaches your country), then import tax, then VAT on the whole lot. This leads to about a 33 - 35% increase in cost - so not really much of a difference in the end. So you probably won't end up making a killing. If you try to avoid any of the above (well the last two) - it's fraud and not worth taking the risk unless you're a carreer criminal - and these poeple do it in much simpler but smarter ways!
Roland is not the only one to play this game, they all do. I've got to admit though, it's even more confusing now because of the weak dollar. Example, Roland products made in Japan and sold to the US and EU in YEN. This should make the product far more expensive in the US since you have to spend more (weak) US dollars than the (strong) Euro to buy the products from Japan. Product should be cheaper in Europe. That's not the case and it seems the currency fluctuations can be absorbed. Maket size may also play a part.
Even with import tax and VAT, that leaves only one other avenue. The Roland distribution network is seriously more inefficeint or greedy than the one in the US. This network provides all the support etc. required to back the product up. I can't see that they should be a huge difference. That just leaves as you've indicated, a degree of price fixing and 'ripping off' going on. Without looking at all the accounts, it's impossible to tell, but it is WELL WORTH the investigation. Just to re-iterate Roland aren't the only ones - collusion is illegal in the EU (anti-monopoly laws) and I find it just too much of a conincidence that both Korg and Yam's new boards are priced identically - and that represents about a 10% increase from where they were last time. I'm sure Roland will follow suit next year.
One good thing though, European products in the US are more expensive or level pegging including taking the weak dollar into account - take a look at anything by RME for example.
Steve
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barbarossa0067
- Posts: 13
- Joined: 20:17, 26 September 2007
Re: European Roland Customers getting RIPPED OFF!
Haha...Stevie, I know. I was just kidding about making a killing. I said it with a smile and a laugh (but you can't hear that in here). ;D
You did post several interesting possibilities here.
Am I mistaken, or is the VAT included in all of your prices as listed in Britain as well? So when it says, "20 GBP" it means 20GBP and the VAT is included?
Look. Before, they were getting by when 1 Euro bought $1.21. Prices were "equal" back then as well (3-4 years ago)... and when I say "equal", I mean the price in dollars was the SAME as the price in Euros. Now, it is at $1.42, and the price is still equal.
It is simply time for the American market to start paying its fair share (again, as an American who lives in Europe, I can say this without too many problems! ;D).
Chris
Thanks!
You did post several interesting possibilities here.
Am I mistaken, or is the VAT included in all of your prices as listed in Britain as well? So when it says, "20 GBP" it means 20GBP and the VAT is included?
Look. Before, they were getting by when 1 Euro bought $1.21. Prices were "equal" back then as well (3-4 years ago)... and when I say "equal", I mean the price in dollars was the SAME as the price in Euros. Now, it is at $1.42, and the price is still equal.
It is simply time for the American market to start paying its fair share (again, as an American who lives in Europe, I can say this without too many problems! ;D).
Chris
Thanks!
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barbarossa0067
- Posts: 13
- Joined: 20:17, 26 September 2007
Re: European Roland Customers getting RIPPED OFF!
I have a feeling what might be happening is since the dollar is weakening relative to the other currencies, Roland is loathe to raise its prices over there to reflect real costs for fear that they will lose market share. Probably what they are making in the United States is not a reflection of what it costs to do business there. So they keep the prices in Europe the same and not make adjustments in the US to keep people buying (and remembering Roland).
This is still not an excuse to charge the people of Europe twice what you are charging people in the US (in sound card example). That is simply pillaging.
I encourage everyone to do everything legally possible to acquire goods from the US market instead of paying these outrageous prices.
If you need some SRX Sound Cards, look up "Guitar Center" on Google, and order there. At $200 a piece, I am sure you can pay the import tax and shipping, and still emerge a winner.
This is still not an excuse to charge the people of Europe twice what you are charging people in the US (in sound card example). That is simply pillaging.
I encourage everyone to do everything legally possible to acquire goods from the US market instead of paying these outrageous prices.
If you need some SRX Sound Cards, look up "Guitar Center" on Google, and order there. At $200 a piece, I am sure you can pay the import tax and shipping, and still emerge a winner.
Re: European Roland Customers getting RIPPED OFF!
I'll say again - it's not just Roland, they're all up to it. So it can't be about keeping market share to lower prices in only one country.
If you can get stuff from the US cheaper now, do so, but bear in mind warranty issues - stuff bought in the US will have NO warranty whatsoever in Europe. Generally, european warranties are pan-european meaning if you buy something in Germany but live in England, the english support unit is obliged to honour that warranty - but this does vary so DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH.
There's also the 110V 50hz electrical issue - stuff in europe is 230V 60hz, make sure it's compatible. Most stuff DOES have universal switching transformers, but do your reading.
And yes, usually VAT is inlcuded in the price, but of course there are exceptions to this but it should be labelled VAT exc. (exclusive rather than inc. (inclusive)).
I think the best port of call may be the EU to find out more about this - I would love to really know what's going on, but it will be interesting when the dollar strengthens.
Steve
If you can get stuff from the US cheaper now, do so, but bear in mind warranty issues - stuff bought in the US will have NO warranty whatsoever in Europe. Generally, european warranties are pan-european meaning if you buy something in Germany but live in England, the english support unit is obliged to honour that warranty - but this does vary so DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH.
There's also the 110V 50hz electrical issue - stuff in europe is 230V 60hz, make sure it's compatible. Most stuff DOES have universal switching transformers, but do your reading.
And yes, usually VAT is inlcuded in the price, but of course there are exceptions to this but it should be labelled VAT exc. (exclusive rather than inc. (inclusive)).
I think the best port of call may be the EU to find out more about this - I would love to really know what's going on, but it will be interesting when the dollar strengthens.
Steve
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barbarossa0067
- Posts: 13
- Joined: 20:17, 26 September 2007
Re: European Roland Customers getting RIPPED OFF!
I agree. It is not just Roland. Lots of people are doing it. Right now, I just happen to be heavily in the market for Roland products.
To buy Sony's Acid Pro 6.0 in Germany costs twice what it does in the States.
To buy Sony's Acid Pro 6.0 in Germany costs twice what it does in the States.