Better Piano Sound?

[LanProductions]

I can see this topic getting flooded with questions now, so i'll jump in quickly and ask.

I've always been 'not too exited' by the 'Ultimate Grand'. I've had a listen to some of your demos and they do sound great, but so did the Roland demos. So my question is; Once you've loaded up your sounds and start playing, do you get this 'amazing' feeling as if you were sitting infront of a real grand?!? In other words, is it $350's worth, or $450 in Australian money? Thanks.

Sorry for the basic question...im new at this game,
Thanks for your time!

UPDATE: I should just add before people start throwing things at me, the 'Ultimate Grand' IS great and more than enough for someone with my limited talent. It's just really never got me exited and completly happy with the sound. Thats why i asked the question, how much better can it get?

=P

[thunderkyss]

If you don't mind me asking.......if you are familiar with the Fantom series, but if you are, could you take a listen to So True, and tell me what you think it needs.

I can't put into words what I think is lacking. I like it, but something is missing. I'd love to tweak it, to make it better, but I don't know where to start, and end up getting frustrated.

I'd really apreciate your opinion and advice.


FantomS
AW4416
Now all I need is talent.
Anyone selling any talent??
member # 55
registered 21 May 2003

tundrkys98@yahoo.com Yahoo messenger: tundrkys98

[William Coakley]

There's nothing like the real thing... but we don't have the money and space so we make compromises. So, how close can we get to the real experience you talk about? It depends on what you mean by that experience.

The ultimate purpose of having a great instrument is to get something from it. It has to do MORE than an average instrument or provide something that an average instrument can't... and that usually centers around "inspiration." A great instrument has great inspirational value... and because of its beauty and perfection your objections and concerns about flaws in an average instrument are no longer a distraction to your creativity and focus. You can relax and flow with the moment knowing there are no clunky notes, poorly rendered sections of the piano or poor programming that are going to spike your attention and focus. This means it brings out the best of your ability and talent... more so than a ho hum instrument that you can get by with.

Notice, you said, "not completely happy..." "never got me excited" that comes from the fact that the Ultimate Grand was never designed to be a great instrument... it was simply a necessary feature to help market a product. It was not a labor of love and no matter what you do to it... it won't inspire because you are reminded of its shortcomings everytime you play it. The only option you have is to go into 'manual override' and try to pretend it's really what it isn't... a beautiful piano... and that takes way too much core time for a creative musician or piano artist.

The difference between what you now have and the Hamburg D Volume 5, was said to be "a million times better" by a member here. Besides, no one at Roland wants to claim the Ultimate Grand as their creation... so you can't talk to the developer even if you could find him/her. When you don't have to face public scrutiny for something you create... the work invariably gets mediocre and sloppy.

To answer your question... playing your controller and my piano in your studio is NOT THE SAME as sitting at a real concert grand in a theatre ...but its far more rewarding and more inspirational playing my piano if finished product worthy of your talent is what you're looking for.... and that is worth every penny of what you pay for it.


William williamcoakley.com

[William Coakley]

Were you asking me??

[Still Learning]

Hi William, earlier in this thread you said; "...Besides, no one at Roland wants to claim the Ultimate Grand as their creation... so you can't talk to the developer even if you could find him/her. When you don't have to face public scrutiny for something you create... the work invariably gets mediocre and sloppy."

If you go to http://www.rolandus.com/products/detail ... ageMode=15 and click on the interactive demo on the bottom of that page, then click on the brochure (PDF) link, you will see info on who developed sounds for the Fantom X. Shown below is a little from that brochure.

I am a novice piano player that really enjoys true piano feel and sound. I am interested in comparing your product to the Ultimate Grand patch and the SRX-11 board.

William, my question for you is, do you or your company own a Fantom X? if so, what operating system is installed on it?

***From the Roland Brochure***
?I have really enjoyed capturing these sounds for the new Roland products. I am passionate about quality and used the best tube microphones, microphone preamps and A/D converters that money can buy to record these sounds. While mixing these samples, I approached it as if I were mixing a record or a film score. I hope you enjoy them!? Dan Blessinger. Dan is a recording engineer/producer who has worked on projects with the likes of Barbra Streisand, Prince, 311, The London Symphony Orchestra, Yo Yo Ma, The Los Angeles Master Chorale as well as Films for Universal Pictures, Morgan Creek Entertainment, Warner Brothers and Disney to name a few. He has served 12 years as Engineer at Martinsound Studios in Los Angeles, which is known around the world for developing high fidelity, cutting edge audio technology as well as audiophile recordings.

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Learning to play like Sponge Bob !

[William Coakley]

Have you visited my site?

williamcoakley.com

William

[Still Learning]

Hi William, to answer your question, yes I have visited your site. I could not find the answer to my original question on your site. Could you please answer my original question? Do you or your company own a Fantom X? if so, what operating system is installed on it?

Maybe you could also tell us a little about the equipment and processes/procedures that you used to develop your latest product, I'm sure that many of us here would love to hear what equipment you used, your specific recording techniques, what studio you used to perform the recordings, etc, etc.
thanks for taking the time to provide us with these answers.

---------------------------
Learning to play like Sponge Bob !

[synthguy]

I have to say that I'm stunned. First that William Coakley is going to release a piano for the Fantom! Second, that he's a member here! And answers questions and stuff!

So... do you have any idea when this beastie will be released? I'm always hot for additional piano samples. When it's out, I'll be in line!

Err... and Still, if you go to the site and look around a little more closely, you'll see this.

Demos:
Sample one: These demos were recorded using Fantom XR analogue outs into an old Mackie 32.4 sound reinforcement board. No effects or processing of any kind has been used other than what's inside the Roland.

I love the future

[hglord]

Synthguy, it's out now. I have it running on my Fantom XR. I play it with a Studiologic Fatar Studio 1100 midi controller.

I love it. It's what I've been looking for since I bought my Fantom.

I've posted a thread about it with more details under Sound Libraries.

Harvey Lord

[synthguy]

EEEP!!! OUT?! WOO!!

Did I mention that I love the future? ;D

[William Coakley]

Woe.... who is "us" in your last sentence?? Are you the group Furher? Have I reached the office of the Holy Inquisition...?

How could you visit my site and learn anything about my product and ask such silly questions? Whether I own a Fantom or not is not important. What is important... is that my product is NATIVE FANTOM and if you knew what that meant you would understand that I'm being very patient with you.

Second, ...you are demanding that if I'm real, I should be surely willing to convince the world that I'm authentic by confessing all my little dark secrets of exactly how I make such beautiful and distinguished instruments.

Please, I came to make friends and provide support for my product and I don't believe that members here gave you authority to represent them. I will be happy to answer any reasonable question but back off the high chair... okay?

William williamcoakley.com

[William Coakley]

Which bank is "So True" in?

William

[William Coakley]

I've taken a preliminary look at this piano and no amount of parameter tweeking will improve it significantly. It just wasn't designed or sampled correctly. The samples are only about 2 to 2.5 seconds long, the piano isn't a particularly nice one and isn't a concert grand, the mics are the wrong ones and it uses outdated piano design ...what we had ten years ago... short samples with loops and using some mods to make the loops slightly more palettable. The design suffers from too many samples not positioned correctly, too many layers and insufficient time was spent on fixing significant problems.

In all fairness to the developer, it's not bad for his first try ...and some of the problems may be the by-product of what bean counters and engineers do to someones work. When I licensed the PERFECT PIANO to Ensonic and later to Emu... only two requirements were made: first, they had to use all 16 megs which meant the bean counters and engineers couldn't screw it up too badly... and second, that I had to approve it's final form. Even then both companies managed to screw it up and the Emu version had to be corrected after it was in production... the Ensonic was caught just 24 hours before it was scheduled for production when I reviewed it at the Ensonic plant. It took a full day and two engineers to correct the programming but everyone there was relieved that out of that came a legendary piano that is still used today for professional work.

A great piano is no accident and the reason we don't have more of them is because most piano libraries are made by people who have a next project they have to get to. Refining a piano, even if they knew how, is not a labor of love they are ready to engage in. They neither have the time, ability or patience to insist on perfection and why should they? No one else does. That is why the industry is flooded with so many mediocre pianos and it explains why there are so many complaining musicians and artists who are almost to the point of believing that they will never have a beautiful piano at their fingertips. For companies, the economics goes like this... mediocre pianos are easy to develop, cheap to buy and besides, companies want you to buy the next product with the "improved" piano.

William williamcoakley.com

[The Un-dr.]

Mr. Coakley,

First of all, thank you very much for visiting this forum!

Although 45 yrs. old/young, I'm new to all of this--I only purchased the Fantom X8 in Jan/05 and I know next to nothing about the history of sampled pianos etc.

I have been inspired by the "Ultimate Grand" patch and Nathan Sheldon's tweaked version, I must say. To have a weighted piano and sound that good has always been my dream (i.e., I can't play my 1910 upright late at night while the spouse and kiddies are slepping etc.).

That said, I'm very interested in your work. If we can go even higher in the quest for a great digital piano, I'm all ears.

However, I visited your web site and, I'm sorry to say, I'm a bit confused. I would lke to request that you outline exactly which products can be purchased for Fantom X owners (in all prices ranges).

Thank you!

[LanProductions]

Thankyou for your reply Mr. Coakley, that did perfectly answer my question, and also weather you were here to sell or support your product. It's pretty clear that your here to do the later. Over the next couple of days im going to have a serious think about your product, and you may see an order from me shortly.

Thank you for your time!

=P