Musician Consumers United for Change!

[gospelone]

Vent from another thread....

Most companies respond to customers who spend 3k plus on a single product, especially if they are represented as a block or class. Maybe all we need is consumer representation!

Maybe Roland Clan or some of our members can do something formally representing all Fantom users as a group.

Its not like Roland is doing any of us a favor by taking our money, they are actually supposed to deliver a certain quality of goods at a certain level of performance....just like Dell, HP, Gateway , Toyota, GM AND Ford

All any of us want is to get what we paid for...after all its just Roland! Its not we're dealing with Uncle Sam, how much stonewalling can they do?

If I buy a printer, with such and such types of features doesn't that printer have to be able to do what it is stated at the expected level of performance? If it is advertised to fax it should fax sufficiently, if it supposed to copy it should copy sufficiently in other words shouldn't I be able to fax and shouldn't I be able to copy to the same degree and functionality as any fax machine or copier in that price range or caliber? Within reason of course.

In the same way if a keyboard is advertised as having an arpegiator, shouldn't we be able to arpegiate to the same degree and functionality as any arpegiator in that price range or caliber and especially at least on the same level as prior models from the same company?

I love my Fantom G more each day, just as I love my Ford automobile, but if my Ford does not do what I paid for it to do Ford has to correct it.

In the same way I believe Roland owes us a usable arpegiator and fix its for data management, after all we paid for it!

Is that asking too much?

[Artemiy]

You bought a green apple, assuming that it would become yellow in a few days, but it has become red. Are you going to blame the garden, the tree, the gardener, someone else?

You may not like how Roland implemented this or that function, but they implemented it the way they wanted. So it is working according to their specification, described in the manual. It is NOT malfunctioning.

You can't demand anything from a company if it's product is working according to their specification and user manual.

But if you're unsatisfied with how Roland designed it's specification for the instrument, sell it.

[V-CeeOh]

You're not asking to much. You're just asking wrongly.
What exactly is a "usable" arpegiator? I rarely use the arpegiator but when I do, it works perfectly.

[gospelone]

1. I like my Fantom G, a whole lot.... I like my Ford, my Dell pc and my Lexmark printer, I like my Samsung cell phone too ...but if my PC is supposed to cut and paste, burn a cd or play a video when I turn it on, I expect my PC to cut and paste, burn cds and play videos in the same manner or way, with the same end results most pcs do and the way prior dell models do.

We didn't buy the manual we bought something that said it does something..so the question is does it do what it is supposed to do...not half baked but according to prior standards and the company's own previous standards.

I shouldn't turn on the air conditioner in my Ford and find out it blows air, it conditions air but doesn't really cool.

I shouldn't print something on my Lexmark and find that it prints but you can only load one page at a time or only plain white paper

My cell phone should send texts with the same capability and end results as any phone that sends text especially in the same price range.

I'm not really upset but merely speculating and wondering how it is we musicians can spend x amount of dollars and not have any expectation that a company should do something to satisfy an overwhelming status- quo of complaints just like Toyota or any other company?

I'm merely suggesting that a block of musicians as consumers could possibly sway a company into doing what is right because it is right.

Besides you have to admit the arp in the G appears to be formidable...but in actuality it really stinks to high heaven

Is it because we're mere musicians or is it because its a musical instrument that we have lower expectations of what we should get for our dollar or I am just making a lot of noise about nothing?

[gospelone]

@ I rarely use the arpegiator but when I do, it works perfectly.


You mean to say you really understand the arp in the G and in no way are you not stifled by its inadequacy?

Wow!

[Quinnx.]

Well it has been my experience in the past that when someone wise enough realizes there is a flaw in the functionality of something and trys to express this..
it is usually met with very little understanding, skepticism and alot of... I don't use it so therefore its not a problem..

Its only sometime down the road when those very same people start to use said functionality do they then see the problem and by this time its too late.

Thats my observation.

right now is too late to change the G its at the end of its life as far as roland road map goes which is 3 years for any product.
The best way musicians can unite in this fast pace changing environment is to either not buy any product until it has matured to it fullest (3years)
Or if you do buy something and its flaws are not addressed in quick time.. return the product and get your money back.

[Atlas5]

Quinnx, while I might not always agree with your assessment of a feature or functionality, I think your post is right on the money.

Your Dollar is the loudest voice you have as a consumer.

Buying a product at the end of it's development cycle is definitly the right time for your maximum value, and I agree that for "keyboard's" it's about 3 years after the NAMM rollout.

Additionally, expecting manufacturers to fix, upgrade or change products is very risky.

I'd recommend people read the manual and readup on forum posts before buying any instrument. Then testing out the functionality and determine workflow issues in the first month,

unless your like me and love to have the equipment, even if you'll never use it. (The SP505 for instance, or the Tenori-on, all of them stupid groove boxes, all the Kaoss Krap, stuff I never use, really never have used and probably never will use, beyond one stupid little song.

Sorry, but gear lust is my illness, can't seem to find a cure. Can't even bring my self to sell it, even if it's broken.

[gospelone]

Unfortunately I think you are correct...wait 3 yrs then decide, in which case you'd be knowingly buying with full awareness of the pluses and minuses since they all have some...3 years behind the cutting edge

Its just hard to fathom that the minuses in the Fantom will go unacknowledged and unaddressed

I must say I love my Fantom with all its little quirks I just thought it would be an interesting topic for discussion.

If Art doesn't think Roland will address the issues and if Dan bailed out of the matter all together then that just about sums it up

The state of music equipment reminds me of what I heard a hacker say when asked why he hacks into systems.

He said something to the effect that software developers don't have to meet any standards, they just basically develop an idea and throw it out in the market without any quality assurance and totally unregulated
He said Meat, milk and eggs have to be graded
Autos have to meet regulations and even toys.... but software manufacturers like Microsoft make billions selling stuff that doesn't work right

He said

He zeroed in on Microsoft defects because so many of us depend upon MS software in some way and are hostage to the quality of their products or lack thereof

He said, paraphrasing
"my job as a hacker is like a public service, showing developers and consumers how sloppy their work is, where all the flaws are and putting them in an uncomfortable position where they have to fix it"

In effect forcing them improve the quality of their product

I wish reviewers of keyboards would give the kind of blunt honest assessment of products in their initial reviews of them that would cause manufacturers to think twice before they put out something that will be exposed from day one.

For instance...whats wrong with the Kronos, what is its shortcomings anybody know yet?

[Mystic38]

@ Gospelone

You are perfectly correct. The arpeggiator in the Fantom g is garbage, far below the functionality of the Fantom x or Juno g...it's serious shortcomings are well documented in the forum threads.

@ quinnx

Spot on.

[gospelone]

@ Mystic38

Whew!

Thanks for confirming that...I was beginning to think I entered Bizarro World, the Twilight Zone or some place in time and space where the daggone thing suddenly worked like a top shelf arpegiator or at least up to Roland standards

[V-CeeOh]

Lets make this clear
I'm in no way diminishing your needs. It's been largely talked here that the Arpegiator is not as flexible as others, namely those from Yamaha or Korg. I have also explained that, for several reasons, Roland can't do/ doens't want to do an arpeggiator like those. But that's not the point. You say:

Roland owes us a usable arpegiator

Well, Roland owes us nothing. You have an arpeggiator there and you can use it. If it works below your expectations it's another matter. It's like you're expecting your Ford's air conditioner to blow cool air twice faster or stronger then what it does. Would you ask Ford to fix it if it happend that way?
That's why I said you're not asking too much but are asking wrongly. For the rest, I agree with you.

[V-CeeOh]

You can find some relevant information in this thread if you care to read

http://forums.rolandclan.com/index.php?action=show_thre...

[gospelone]

@V-CeeOh It's like you're expecting your Ford's air conditioner to blow cool air twice faster or stronger then what it does. Would you ask Ford to fix it if it happend that way?

Just for the sake of clarity if my 2010 Ford Focus air conditioner works far less adequately than the1995 Ford Focus I used to have...that is a problem

If the headlights, gas mileage and sound system are less efficient, that would also be a problem because ....
Most companies do improve upon their quality
Most companies do not give you less when they upgrade

Putting it in more perspective I owned a 95' XP-80, at the time Roland's Flagship, top of the line workstation XP series.

Lets say I also owned a 1995 BMW 325i

I kept both of them 15 years

In 2010 I upgrade from my XP -80 and buy a Fantom G7, Roland's current top of the line G series and I also upgrade my Beamer to the top of the line 3 series and buy a 2010 335i

NO FEATURE in my BMW works at a lower standard or quality than the 15 year older model, in fact on top of the newly innovated features in my BMW even the older features work better, everything about it is better...BOTH the new stuff and the old stuff!

Its a better car in every way

That's why I buy BMWs because I love their top of the line products, they have certain features I expect them to have and I like the way they perform.

Wow what a revolutionary idea!!!

The Dell I bought in1995 and the Windows software would follow the same revolutionary logic....
Buy the equivalent products, from the same manufacturers in 2010 and guess what?

The same revolutionary concept applies to these products as well
Everything about them are better, NOT WORSE

Get my point?
I don't think I'm asking or saying anything unreasonable

The arp in my XP-80 totally outclasses and smokes the arp in my G, simply no comparison and what I am trying to convey is there is also no excuse when they are both top of the line from the same manufacturer.

So in this case my expectations were reasonable by any stretch of the imagination, logic, business sense or customer satisfaction

[V-CeeOh]

Well , It seems I did not make myself clear.

1- I agree with you.
2 - I also upgraded from a XP-50 (that still own) to a X8 and then to a G8 so I DO get your point.
3 - You say Roland "owes" you something. They don't. You bought a G with an arpeggiator that works as described. You should have said "my G should have an arpeggiator of the class of my XP-80, at least"
4 - Like I said, I rarely use the arpegiator. When I do it's in a very basic way so the G arpegiator is perfectly "usable" for ME.
5 - I also think BMW series 3 is very nice but doesn't have enough space for my family so I drive a Scenic .

[kenchan]

here's how japan is killing new ideas and innovation... imagine trying to work or make something great with this over your head.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/28/world/asia/28generati...