Is it possible for Roland to say something without saying it

[secret Roland agent]

Does anyone else feel a tremor, or is it just me?

[manishkurup]

"I guess my point is that few people here have any clue why MI manufacturers do what they do. Nor do they have any clue how a large corporation like Roland works. They will, however, assume the worst. They assume Roland doesn't care about their customers or making the best workstation they can. They assume it's all about greedy fat cats trying to fool people into buying their lemon."

And you do? C'mon Audacity, talk is cheap, and just making statements like this doesnt make it true unless you have facts to back them up, and state them. I respect your views on many of your posts but the last few are not what I would call very accurate or to-the-point.

What the customer sees, is what the customer will make his opinion on. It doesnt matter if you explain to them ... "you know I had the best of intentions, but Im sorry it had to turn out this way" .. Guess what happens, the customer drops you like a hot potato . How do I know this? Well, I've worked for a few big corps myself ... R&D, core development, customer calming sessions You name it ... It's not the MI, but it's similar in its products (custom hardware/silicon and custom firmware).

I will still stick to my story ... The customer is King, and those who dont realize this, will EVENTUALLY FAIL ... been there survived that ... helplessly watched millions of R&D and development prototype dollars flushed down the drain because no-one would commit to buy !

So my friend, relax ... you are obviously very knowledgeable about lot of these matters, but some of us know a thing or two also ...

Peace ..

Manish

[Quinnx.]

I dont realy see the bitching..
what i see is people expressing themselves as to how much they real like the G and wish roland would hurry and put all that was sacraficed from the x just to get the G to market on time.
Which we all know to be true..

They assume Roland doesn't care about their customers
I assume nothing, its based on past experience with roland and the fantom x and roland lack of support to fix all the bugs which where there since day 1 and where never fixed only to see even more bugs introduced along the way.
So NO! roland does`nt care about its customers..
What it does care about is its pockets and as long as they are still filling them they will just gladly take your money..
Its all just business
the only time you will see a change is if the public wises up and stops buying or sending back there G.
This is how you move a corporation to care about its customers, when it effects their pockets..
untill then...
Good luck..

[The Audacity Works]

manishkarup: And you do?

Actually, I know a lot about the MI industry, and live mere miles from several MI companies. And party with people from Line 6, M-Audio, MXL, and others. In fact, I'm attempting to build my very own MI company as I type this—just need about 50% more funding to pay for a national sales manager and extra engineer. I know gear design and manufacturing, distribution, sales (both via distribution networks and in retail), marketing, patents, licensing, installation, and way more that unfortunately gets in the way of actually designing the gear.

So yeah, I am taking it a bit personal, because I can only imagine what people will say on my company's forum. It certainly makes me think twice about having a forum at all... or ever visiting one created by users.

But at least this place isn't like Harmony Central when the OASYS was first announced. You would've thought Korg raped everyone's mom or something, the vibe was so caustic.

[The Audacity Works]

Quinxx:

I dont realy see the bitching...

And then, in the very same post:

I assume nothing, its based on past experience with roland and the fantom x and roland lack of support to fix all the bugs which where there since day 1 and where never fixed only to see even more bugs introduced along the way.
So NO! roland does`nt care about its customers..
What it does care about is its pockets and as long as they are still filling them they will just gladly take your money..
Its all just business

Wait... Is that supposed to be ironic or something?

[Jimknopf]

Constructive communication is so much better than bitching

Great!
I'm looking forward to it )

[Quinnx.]

tut! tut!

There you go again...
taking it personal...
whos right who wrong.. (who cares just lets keep the debate going..)

Next..

[manishkurup]

Having your own company makes it all the more reason to have your own forums. Have you ever visited the AXON (Terratec) forums or the Korg (karma-lab) forums?

I know that the terratec guys are amazing, I've actually sent them one of the patches on my AXON that I was having issues with, and the engineers in Europe, studied it, and implemented a fix in the next version of the firmware.

I know the Korg guys are pretty amazing with responsiveness too! Again, Im not dissing Art and the gang, because I truly believe that this forum is amazing. Im simply talking about the lack of meaningful Roland presence in these forums or any other forum thereof.

As I said before, it's better to have unhappy customers than no customers at all ... because in the former case, you know what to fix, and in the process succeed .

That being said, I agree with you that some of the posts I have seen here are just way out of line, and dont help the cause. But most of the guys here are quite civil in their requests, and do provide valuable input .. wouldnt you agree?

To answer your question about what people will say on your company's forum ... well, that's upto you, dont you think?

Manish

[chicks]

the only thing ANY and EVERY company will respond to is...

MONEY!!!

if you are not happy, sell your G and file a complaint with Roland... that will solve 2 problems... first it will alleviate your frustrations and secondly make Roland aware of its shortcomings... in short term it might not do a lot, but the next synth might not be released too early and might actually live up to its billing...

i appreciate all of your opinions, but it our position gets more and more fragile with all (a whole lot) of requests... dissension is needed because it holds people accountable... I get it, the squeaky wheel gets the oil... but dont let our squeakyness become white noise...

P.S. Complaints about the G had died down for a while and then Korg came out with their update... Coincidence?!?!?

Still waiting on that Solo button... (see I have complaints too)

[keysme]

Well I'm glad to see my topic has sparked some interest and debate. As to whether Dan Kirsher feels threatened by some of our "frankness" I think Dan can handle it. The key to a great Moderator or "contributor" to a Forum such as Roland Clan is to "take a lickin' and keep on tickin'" and to do what you do in a respectable, adult manner. And my belief is that forum members should try to do likewise.

I've been on other Forums such as Motifator (FWIW,I owned ALL three models of the Motif series at one time or another) and don't think for one minute that the members over there treat the Moderators with all sugar and spice either. Phil Clendeninn and Athan Billias both have "what it takes" when it comes to putting up with people's questions, concerns, and even anger. I think one of the secrets for them is: they really like what they do, they make good money doing it, and they've developed a "thick" skin over time i.e. they've learned to "deal with it" and go on. Another positive quality they have is they are willing, in many cases, to go the extra mile to help people out. It is true that they have been known to share company information with forum members but it is all predicated on how much information Yamaha Japan allows them to divulge.

I'm sure Dan Kirsher can take the heat but if he ever finds he can't, then he can always get out of the kitchen as they say. Hopefully he won't find the need to do so and he'll stick around for a looooooooooonnnnnnnnnnnnnngggggggggggg time. Until such a time that Roland Japan or Roland U.S. re-directs him elsewhere. Which will be our loss and Roland Clans loss as well.

As Jimknopf said; this is a start, a beginning, a 'new' beginning, and hopefully speaks of even greater things to come in the future.

Dialog is good, whether it comes in the form of anger, resentment, or good will. The ONLY substantial and real way Roland is made aware of their customers needs and concerns is if we the customer communicate those needs to them, either directly, or through other means such as this Forum. And I have to believe they care about me, about us, and furthermore, about the Fantom G. It is their Flagship product on the line. They know that, and depending on how motivated and committed they are to their Company image and policy directives, they will do everything in their power, in my opinion, to make it right for their customers, and also strive to make it right concerning each and every product they sell to consumers. To do less would only go to strengthen their competitors, while at the same time, diminish their own image in the eyes of the general public; and even more importantly, in the eyes of their fellow Japanese citizens in my opinion.

[The Audacity Works]

manishkurup:

But most of the guys here are quite civil in their requests, and do provide valuable input... wouldnt you agree?

Absolutely, and I wasn't singling anyone out... except for maybe superchris and his Bush comment. Truth be told, I left this place for a while because I got sick of explaining part-based sequencing every third post and fielding complaints that were often mired in a lack of understanding on how product design works... or sometimes, basic MIDI.

To answer your question about what people will say on your company's forum... well, that's upto you, dont you think?

I've actually thought about this a lot, and honestly, I wouldn't have much control over it without gestapo bannination tactics. My product line is very specialized, but it's also extremely open-ended, and could potentially reach a lot of people with dozens of different applications (even applications that annoy the hell out of me), each with their own perfectly legitimate and equally silly requirements. Because of the nature of how the system works, there will be all sorts of misconceptions. I'm suggesting an exhaustive FAQ section on the website that kinda acts as a preemptive strike against the ignorant rants of trolls.

Example:

Q: Why doesn't Xxxxxx do this? My high-end DAW software does that, and I haxxored it for free!

A: Dude, really? MIDI doesn't transmit audio signals. C'mon, kids learn that on the first day of recording school. Your software doesn't do it either—you just think it works that way.


So if someone gets out of line, they get a hyperlink to an existing, smart-ass FAQ they should've read in the first place.

The hard part will be predicting all the complaints and left-field feature requests.

And maybe my company will be doomed to fail because I'm a firm believer that the customer is NOT always right—Anyone with any food service experience will attest to that. The customer is often irrational, greedy, unrealistic, and mired in a ocean-sized sense of entitlement. But those with legitimate concerns and feature requests will be rewarded with as much work as five people can muster.

And there absolutely will be situations where a customer will say "Hey guys, I tried loading this file and it keeps doing this" or "Hey guys, this particular series of button presses results in a hang." There's absolutely no possible way to squash every bug out of the gate, especially in a sophisticated product with an embedded OS that interfaces with the quirks and foibles of other companies' gear. And most likely, if enough funding comes in, my second box's prototype will have to meet milestones, which will most likely keep my engineers from fixing every bug reported on the old box until the new one is working relatively well. Until I win the lottery and can hire fifty engineers, that's the way it's gonna be.

The biggest shame, however, is when some guy finds a critical bug, reports it on page 5 of a huge, unnecessary flamewar/bitch session, and it gets lost in the fray. Quite frankly, I won't know about it, because I'll have gotten sick of the noise and left the thread. And my box will have a critical bug.

So maybe all I'm saying is that maybe we can lessen the noise a bit, so Dan sticks around.

Hi Dan! Please stick around! I promise to be nice!

[jessej]

There is always option C.

That is, some angry unsatisfied user makes a good long descriptive video about all bad things about the Fantom G, posts it on the Youtube, 3,2 million users see it in a week, the link to it spreads like wildfire trough all forums on the planet, and then Roland can rethink about the update after their sales stall to an halt.

I posted this video several times already, but no-one commented on it yet. It describes modern customer relations and suits this situation we are facing right now extremely well. All the guy in red says is 100% what I think.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gu5JCJHKYfI

Now I must say I have a HD camera and I have been involved in making documentaries and films, but I don't have time to make a video like that, but eventually, someone will.

I wish Roland would have the brain to act before it comes to option C.

[Diametro]

I'm sure Roland will be announcing/releasing some kind of update at Winter NAMM in J A N U A R Y ...

On the other hand, I still don't understand why y'all jumped on the Fan-G bandwagon "before its time" ... While I feel for all G owners, I have a little more sympathy for those who were purchasing their first workstation or migrating from another brand ... I mean is any of this REALLY that surprising if you're at all familiar with the way Roland operates and seemingly will continue to operate ...

On the other hand, as somebody pointed out, it's almost impossible to get a handle on bugs and shortcomings even if you test extensively in-store ... You really don't know until you stop putzing around and get around to creating actual songs with it that the roadblocks become apparent ...

I spent A LOT of time demoing the Fan-X in-store before I purchased ... and yet, there were many aspects of the X that surprised me in a negative way ...

My view is this forum isn't sour grapes or whining immaturely ... Roland is just selling immature wine with the Fan-G(rapes) ...

And frankly, if Roland is seriously monitoring this forum, it's a little ridiculous that they send in someone with no authority to talk about what's on the horizon (near-term plans) when that's clearly what the the hoo-haw is all about ...

[superchris]

wow audacity you add nothing but arrogance and stupidity to this debate. Im so sorry you had to help out a few newbies who didnt understand the sequencer....... If you are really that much better then us then dont get involved and waste your time with us minions. You act as if your someone important in the music industry. Its kinda funny how you throw around words like "ignorant rants of trolls". How you are a moderator blows my mind. You have got a lot to learn kid....wait i forgot you no everything

[jessej]

>On the other hand, I still don't understand why y'all jumped on the
>Fan-G bandwagon "before its time" ... While I feel for all G owners, I
>have a little more sympathy for those who were purchasing their first
>workstation or migrating from another brand ... I mean is any of this
>REALLY that surprising if you're at all familiar with the way Roland
>operates and seemingly will continue to operate ...

I got the Fantom G asap it was available so I would know how to use it along the way as the OS matures. "Grow with it". I also got it so I could be a part of the process of helping it get better, a part of the community that creates patches, a part of helping Roland with ideas and customer feedback, and to know it inside out before anyone else does, as I usually do when I teach and give lectures.

I can say I know it more or less inside-out right now, It is a very powerful beast and it sounds excellent. I was REALLY surprized how crippled the 1.00 OS was and how rudimentary the 1.10 OS hotfix was, but most of all I was REALLY surprized there was no 1.11 update 1-2 weeks right after the 1.10 hotfix that would have fixed the likes of MIDI ipmort/export. And I a REALLY REALLY surprised it has taken over 4 months for Roland to deliver.... nothing. Not even bringing the 1.00 editor up to par with 1.10.

I think that is total neglect on behalf of Roland Japan and I will not forget that when I am buying / recommending stuff to the Studios I work at, the bands I record, produce, mix, master or to the students I teach... or to any of my bandmates and their friends...

Roland is seemingly really slow in providing updates and drivers. In this world with constant updates, like an automatic OSX update, how could I trust Roland to update drivers if there is an conflict in drivers, when I know it takes over 4 months to fix even the most rudimentary things?

I would never buy a Roland firewire interface because of that now. 6 months ago I would have. The trust is gone.