Best practices for realistic drumming sequences

[tedw]

Hi Clan

When I am recording songs, I normall reserve parts 10-16 for the drum kit. You know, 10=Kick, 11=Snare, 12=Hihat...15=Toms,16=Cymbals etc.

So... I build up a drum pattern that I like by adding the above parts 1 by 1...and then copy the phrases repeatedly across the song...to fill out a basic structure etc.

Then I add the TOMS in for some iterations ...and not necessarily for all repetitions.

OK.. whats the problem? Well - trying to get a realistic sound (e.g. when the hi hat is tapping away etc - or maybe rider cymbals instead of hihat... and then add in a drum roll across the TOMS and SNARE parts.. I am conscious that a 'real' drummer wouldnt be keeping up the hihat part while his hands are actually on the drum roll around the Toms etc.

So .. what is a practical way to "roll up" all the individual drum tracks into a single view...and then resolve what the hihat (or cymbals) are doing... during the drum roll part. Ideally then separating out that overall "rollup" back into the individual parts (so that I can playaround with the various parts in the drum mix individually).

I hope I have explained the problem?

Any creative/best practice ideas?

BTW.. I typically only use the FG. I have laptops etc.. but dont really use the computer for DAW-based software.

Suggestions please?

Thanks guys

Ted

[kenchan]

i think you're making it much more complicated than it needs to be.

might suggest listening to drummers play and learn where they put their accents.

[thextreme1]

As kenchan said, you are making it way more difficult and time consuming than it has to be. You should loop record each section(verse, bridge and chorus) , as they generally wont change from verse to verse. So, just record the roll in your bridge or wherever you want it live within the loop. If you feel you cant... Record the roll by itself and insert it into the mix where you want it and just lay off the cymbal or whatever may be in that section where you want the roll to be.

You may want to think about getting an electronic drum kit(even a cheap one, like that by Ion) to use as a controller for the G... making it even easier to accomplish what you want with your drum beats.

[kenchan]

have to say, kids these days are so frikken spoiled of having youtube... they can learn and see/hear how things are done from their bedroom or parent's house any time they need help. lol

when i was i kid i had to rent VHS tapes at the local library to see video... heck i had to listen to cassette tapes and slowing things down meant i had to hold down the tape winding gear thingie. then it was unaudible to make a note as everything sounded like it came from the devil...

[apex]

here are something to consider tedw...

- don't record your drums using a metronome that way there is a little less "tightness" in the drum loop, but still on time!!!

- record your drum parts in less takes... like try recording hi-hat and toms (in one take) or kick and snare (in one take)

that should help out some...

[rareddy]

@tedW,

I think what's you're looking for is a couple of simple rules:

You only have two hands and two feet. You cannot play a crash, a snare, and a tom all at the same time, because all 3 require a hit with a stick that you're holding.

So I think a good starting rule would be any track that has 5 triggers at the same time wouldn't be realistic (unless you have a 2nd drummer), or if those instruments played would be by a percussionist (maybe like congas playing along with a drummer).

I think I would keep all drummer's parts together, and all percussionist parts grouped separately. That way you can determine some rules for each "person" who is playing.

[tedw]

Thanks guys

Good thoughts.

Im trying to be sensible and realistic about keeping it all logical.. along the lines that rareddy is suggesting.

however, of the reasons i split the drums across the multiple parts... is that i can assign different dumkits to each part. ie. the snare from one, the hihat from another kit, toms from another etc..... and i can keep control of the levels in the mixer.

is there away where i can create a single midi track that has got those 4-5 parts from the separate parts/phrases... see what they look like as an "aggregate" phrase... then edit out the "too many events at a time" aspect that rareddy is referring to... (ie. stop the hi hat and ride cymbal events that are physically not possible when doing a drum roll).

I have read a bit about SMF... does that help?

apex... i like your thinking about keep the drummer's parts all in one, and the percussionists in another... it makes sense. But I dont think I can do that while preserving my preference to have components from different kits across each of the drum parts (eg. say part 10 = kick from Std Kt1, part 11 = snare from "Rock Kit 1" etc.)

I have seen that I can (via Microscope) change the channel in a single phrase (say with all the drum events in one part)...and reallocate all the snare events then to Channel 11, the Hi Hats to Chan 12 and such like). Does that preserve the ability to have different kit components for each of those parts? and control the mixer for the separate parts??

Thanks gurus

Cheers
Ted

@kenchan... you and me both remember those days mate... I've just turned 50 some months ago.

[apex]

you could always just create your own/user drum kit... then you could use drums sounds from whatever kit you like... and they'd all be together in ONE KIT!!!

[kenchan]

tedw- i suppose if all fails buy some garageband loops from itunes.

hahahaha, j/k.



we use to back up sys-ex on cassette tapes. remember those days? (my first real drum machine was a yamaha RX7 or RX5 or watever it was called).

[Mystic38]

tedw,
i think you are trying to do too much at once.. simply get the drum track down into one channel, multiple phrases as others have said and worry about making that last 5% of zing on a cymbal by mixing kits and sound levels until u get something that sounds good with a stock set.

[tedw]

@apex

yes = that sounds like a great idea

Is there a reference in the manual or roland site PDFs (or youtube) on this?

Or is it simple enough to lay down some steps to follow?

Thanks guys
Ted

[tedw]

@kenchan... talking notalgia... I used to have 3 Roland boards, the SH3A - Analog synth, Vocoder VP3 (I think it was called) and an EP30 elec piano, back in the late 70s

Flashbacks??

[tedw]

I thought I would add to my original thread... in case it helps other members.

Background:

I use Studio mode to record songs like everyone else does. I tend to build them up one by one and repeat them to create various verses, choruses, bridges and such like. My preference thus far has been to separate out the various drum instruments across individual parts (usually taking 5 midi parts for the drums and 1 or 2 for percussion). The reason I did this was so I could mix the individual drum part volumes and effects to get the sound I wanted.

So my question then became, how could I "aggregate" the individual parts together again...so I could eliminate things like hi hats still running thru a drum roll over the toms and such like which would not normally be possible in real drumming situations.

I never got a really good solution from the Forum...

BUT... as I was in the USA a few weeks ago, I popped into a music store in California and purchased ARX01 and ARX02 expansion cards to add to my existing ARX03 card.

So... to get ready for ARX DRUMS - as that also only allows allocation to a single part in the sequencer (rather than my current 5-7)... I again needed to collate all the individual drum parts (like my original question!).

The solution I worked out was to SAVE an SMF file (which has ALL Internal parts) - and for the moment I used "Format 1" which retains the individual part allocations per instrument. I then use the function which converts the SMF to a phrase...and I insert than "whole of song" phrase into my Song.

I then use Phrase Edit and MODIFY to then ERASE (one by one) those parts which are not drums. In my case, Parts 1 to 9, and whichever percussion tracks I have for that song as I will keep percussion as INTERNAL patches I imagine. So that leaves in the "Whole of Song" phrase just the drum instruments - currently retaining their allocation across parts 10-16 or whatever.

When my ARX DRUMS card arrives... and is installed... I then simply need to CHANGE CHANNEL for the ex SMF Phrase, to convert the individual parts to whatever part I allocate to ARX DRUMS (presumably Part 10). As the ARX card will let me do the mix and effects on the individual drum components.. I then have an efficient answer to my original problem. I can scan the single "all drums" phrase (from the SMF process above) to scan what drum parts are happening concurrently (using Microscope)..and delete (for example) those hi hat notes which are otherwise happening during a drum roll that would be too busy (in real drumming) to actually execute. Which really was my original question from the Clan...

Anyhow - I thought I would share for everyones benefit.

Now Im just waiting for my ARX cards to arrive from the States! come on FEDEX!!

Cheers
Ted

[Dorkas]

Personally, I really bought a FANTOM G8, not to play the reality, but to play the music of my dreams. And why not: a drummer with three arms and five feet! And I'm not talking about girls who also sing like sirens! !!

[dustyhill]

HI all, When I got the Fantom G and I went to lay down my first drum track I just groaned. I have played drums so much in the last few years that the idea of doing it with my fingers again was yuk. I use to do it very much like you are doing it now on my old sq-80 ensonqi. I went out and got a electronic drum set and record that way. I use the midi or audio from the kit, both work great. The only problem is if you go this route make shure that you can change the patch no. on the kit, you can't do it on the Fantom. I had to upgrade the kit with money that I would have bought another pad with, oh well. Of course you have to be able to get around a drum kit. Just a note I tried to record my Trombone and Trumpet into the G to put down some tracks for my elementry band to play along with and it worked great.