Some (perhaps unjustified?) accusations against the Fantom G

[comradec]

phil wrote: "i havent seen one person say they cant make good music on the fantom, but i know most of us wish the fantom would live up to half the hype and potential the machine has. i really think roland could care less."


Well, I'm not having much fun with my Fantom-G. And this is the second I've had as Roland UK replaced with my first one.

It's got all the sounds and features to make good music, and a (mostly) intuitive operating system and user interface that ought to make it even more exciting.

But mine is consistently failing to load data correctly. Samples, phrases, songs, etc, regularly go missing when I reboot the synth or load a project from USB memory. I cannot depend on the FG to play back what I've programmed into it. (Further details of the issues can be found here: http://forums.rolandclan.info/?action=s ... d=8&page=1.)

This isn't caused by user ignorance either. Roland UK's engineer got the same results when he ran tests on both my FG and the one he had, using both my USB media and his own. And now it's happening on the replacement FG6 that arrived a couple of days ago.

[Hayang]

Thanks so much for posting, guys. Please be patient with me; I don't mean to anger any of you XD

Just to be more specific, I'll ask a few questions and skedaddle.
- As posted above, some person said,
"Features like an Undo function, a Pattern Grid like what the Triton has but a LOT MORE flexible and more than twice the length (up to 8 bars on the Fantom-X vs. 2 1/2 bars on the Triton). Also be aware that the Fantom-G is capable of using a mouse (instead of a touchscreen) to edit parameters, change settings, etc. BUT! It's NOT fully implemented! You can't drag the notes on the Piano Roll editor to shorten, lengthen, or even move them from one place to another (i.e. another measure)! You can't copy notes very easily from one place to another. AND! You can't CREATE notes, either! NOT with the mouse!"

Which raises three questions:

Does the Fantom G really not have an undo function?
Does a "pattern function" (not completely sure what this is) matter if you are composing a song and not playing along to arrangements and arpeggiators?
Can you edit individual notes on the Fantom, with or without a mouse?

Also, I had the privilege of checking out a Motif XS6 and a Fantom G8 yesterday at a store. I brought a pair of Sennheiser HD555s. The first sounds I checked were the pianos, the classical and acoustic guitars, and the orchestra brass, woodwinds, and strings. I must say that the Motif sounded a little better *on the demo*, but the fact is that the place was noisy, and the acoustic instruments on the Motif had an advantage because they sounded much more "direct" and cut through noise (HD555s are open headphones). I do not remember if this directness made the sounds seem unauthentic, but I'll check them out sometime later anyhow.

Therefore I am undecided about sound ATM. I will say that the G-Grand preset was not good at all but as RolClan suggested, the NY Grand default patch sounds nice. I have heard some user patches uploaded and they sound nice too, so I am okay on pianos.

As for guitars, I noticed the XS allows you to make harmonics/hammer-on sounds and slides and even string noise and stuff using two buttons at the side. Can the Fantom do this?

Lastly, the orchestral sounds (esp. brass) were not too impressive on either board. I am looking into getting software VSTi for those. But if I do, is it possible for me to multisample whole orchestra libraries (with different articulations) onto the Fantom-G to use without a computer, or will a computer always be necessary?

Thanks again for helping!

[tunukie]

Hey honestly. It's not the keyboard/workstation that you have... No matter what workstation you've got... To me it doesnt matter... All that matter is how you play with them. and how you are good with them... No matter what kinda brand you're going to have if you don't have the talent to play you and your keyboard are nothing but a piece of crap!!!!

[thextreme1]

>“Can you edit individual notes on the Fantom, with or without a mouse? ”

Actually, you can within a phrase. When you are in that phrase where the note you want to change is, press Microscope. It is simple enough to look down the list on the right hand side, pick the note you want to change, delete it and insert the note you wanted to play. You can also step record, so as to create a phrase note by note.

[Hayang]

thanks again for your answers. tunukie, I think I've already addressed what you said on the first page. I'm not asking whether I am capable of making good music with this board. That's for me to decide. I'm asking for opinions/info on the F-G so I have usable info to make a purchase choice between workstation keyboards. If I'm paying 3 grand for an instrument I think I'm justified in selecting carefully.

So as stated before, my last question is, how capable is the Fantom-G in using multiple-articulation sample libraries?

I will probably be buying VSTi for orchestral/acoustic instruments, and many of them will probably feature different articulations.
- Orchestral string articulations usually seem to be extremely numerous, with 25+ articulation types (http://www.kirkhunterstudios.com/art_st ... rt_k2.html)
- Same goes for brass instruments
- Same for nylon/acoustic guitars, with guitar harmonics, and all the string noises

Does the Fantom have ways to take advantage of all these articulation options (if the multisamples can be imported) with buttons/pedals/other equip? Without using computer VSTi?

I saw the Motif had some buttons on its left side to control special articulations, and the F-G had something similar-looking near the pitch bend wheel though I'm not sure if the function is the same.

[phil_]

youre right tunukie its not the equipment its the user. but you dont buy a bmw and settle for ford focus functionality and quality. i think you miss the point a lot of us try to make in that regard. we dont hate the fantom, we dont say it limits our musical abilities, but it does certain things backwards and it doesnt do certain things it should be able to do. undo wasnt even available on the initial release. how long did it take to get an undo function? 8 months? thats the problem we have against it.

[thextreme1]

I'm truly not having any problems recording with the Fantom. I find no shortcomings that are insurmountable. As others have said, you can dwell on what it cant do, or you can find ways to work around the issues. With any man made objects... there are always improvements that can be made. It is how we implement what is presented to us.

I am mixing internal and external instruments without flaw. Sure, I have questions every now and then, but they are generally promptly answered by another member of this forum. I have found nothing that I cant do with this keyboard. Some issues may involve a bit of a workaround, but they are still resolved without too much hassle.

I appreciate everybody's opinion, but I hate negativity and especially when it is centered on user perception of what could be. You bought the keyboard, one of the best ever made... If you have so many issues with its functionality... Sell it and find something that more suits your needs. Talking about it continuously on a forum does nothing to resolve your issues. If anything, it is counter-productive for the community because noone is learning anything other than the shortcomings.

The BMW/Ford Focus functionality and quality is totally off base. The Fantom G is a BMW. Even BMW's have some initial kinks to be worked out. There is nothing in the Fantom that even slightly resembles poor quality or workmanship. Maybe a basic misunderstanding of users wants(common problem between Japanese manufacturers and end users of their products).

With people like Dan around(Who goes above and beyond what any one person should in order to help users better understand the G), he is able to voice users concerns to the right outlet in order to make a resolve. Just be thankful that most of the user issues can be solved via OS update and it isnt an internal design flaw.

To each their own, but I am finding it easier to make music with the G than any other keyboard I have ever owned. I have seen every major keyboard innovation for the last 30 years. While each has touched on functions that were better than the predecessor, not one has come as close to perfection as the Fantom G has, especially at the price point. Had Alesis gotten their shit together with the Fusion... I may have never bought the Fantom and would still be struggling. But that is a perfect case in point of hardware vs. software flaws. The Fusion was flawed in so many ways via hardware, that I think Alesis just gave up. Which left Fusion owners a bit miffed and 99% of them will probably never buy another Alesis product again. From promised external hard drive implementation that never came to existence to unexplained arp corruption that would trash an entire song with no recourse other than to start over and hope and pray it didnt happen again...

The priority questions are...

Can I make music? Check. Can I record music easily? Check. Can I record external instruments? Check. Are there great instruments internally? Check. Can I master my recordings internally? Check.

Truthfully, what more do you need? You have almost every luxury available to a $100,000 recording studio packed into a $2500 tiny little space and with a little ingenuity, you can come out with recordings that sound as good as... or better than said studios. Hell, I know a guy who did it with the Fusion...

It is all in your mindset. If you tell yourself you cant do something, you wont. If you put a little extra effort into finding ways to accomplish what you thought you couldnt, you will find that, not only do you learn a little more about the G... You teach yourself a valuable lesson in using the resources presented to you and come up with creative ways to accomplish your goals.

[Hayang]

lol I appreciate your enthusiasm guys, and I've read your posts and stuff and they are well taken, but would you mind specifically answering the few questions i posted above?

[lisandro]

Just dont purchase by good looks and entusiasm, like I did once. Test all machines as much you can.

[Mystic38]

@ Hayang

The users manual for the fantom is available here http://www.roland.com/products/en/_support/om.cfm?ln=en...

In there you will see all options for use of S1, S2 buttons, the two control and hold pedals, the 8 sliders and 4 knobs. These are all highly configurable and I suggest you do your own research regarding the ability of the fantom to be configured exactly how you want for control purposes..

There is a general consensus that many of the stock piano patches do not sound "out of the box" as the motif.. along with many thoughts that the stock motif piano sounds are more heavily processed.. So either unimpressive with no/light processing or impressive with heavy processing... u pick. The reality is that 5mins in patch edit mode on the fantom can significantly tweak any of the piano sounds, as will as adding/tuning eq and tuning reverb..

One thing you have not asked either of us or yourself is ease of use. I had used neither motif not fantom before and I decided to see what i could accomplish in 20mins, unaided and without manuals in the local store.. with motif.. umm nothing.. I simply could not navigate, yet in fantom i loop recorded with drums, bass and an EP... My experiences here on ease of use mirros that in reviews, which consitently have sided in favor of the fantom series in this regard..

You have previously stated a preference for the motif.. given any expressed preference like that i would always recommend someone to go with their bias.. the motif is a good board.. so you could not regret it.. its just not for me...

[thextreme1]

I will second the ease of use statement. I have owned the board for less than a month, used the manual only once and have easily navigated through to find what I needed in order to accomplish whatever I was looking to do. Whether it was simply record a sequence, add effects and most recently change a phrase note for note.

It is very easy to navigate through the G. So much so, that the manual is pretty much useless. Anything you havent learned on your own can easily be taught in seconds through Dan's great videos on youtube or from the fine people here on these boards.

[keysme]

As for guitars, I noticed the XS allows you to make harmonics/hammer-on sounds and slides and even string noise and stuff using two buttons at the side. Can the Fantom do this?

In a word.. yes. Yammie calls their technology Super Articulation and the Motif XS does it very well for the guitars. Roland doesn't have a specific name but the effects are still there. Korg calls their technology RX and DNC voice (sound). Roland should consider implementing a new technology and hang a star on it i.e. give it a name too. If the name lives up to the technology behind it then the name itself could be a big draw for customers to their products. Of course Roland does have add-on expansion capability on the Fantom G whilst the Motif XS does NOT. It's apples and oranges if you ask me. If you like an apple more than you do the orange then the apple should suffice your needs. Try each and every keyboard you are interested in first though before you plunk down your cash. Spend a couple hours on each board giving each of them a thorough work out. Then decide. And whatever you decide upon you still will have a 30 day money back guarantee if you decide once you get it home it just doesn't cut the mustard, simply return it for something else.

I have a Fantom G7 and love it. I also pair it with a Roland Sonic Cell and it gives it even more sonic power with its SRX expansion capability and great presets.

Let us know what you decide on...

[firstlovedan]

Hope this helps, but I own Both the XS and the G, and I do love both of them. I however lean on which ever one is the best tool for the job. As far as sounds go in my opinion, I lean on the XS more often. The Ac, and Nylon guitars are extremely expressive. I lean mor on the G for power guitars etc. The XS also has the arp (esp. Guitar strumming) down to a science.
The G blows the XS away on sequencing. Even with it's low points...(No odd time microscope editing, and merge/extract). The G is far better at reording audio as well. The XS is more cumbersome then the G at recording Audio.
And the G's screen atomically BLOWS the XS away. If you are performing outdoors with the XS, forget seeing the screen. Yamaha should have included "Brail" for outdoor use!
So... Sounds, upgrades and sound support,...XS
Sequencing, Screen, and Audio, the G

[tunukie]

Honestly, In my opinion I really find it easy to record and make music using Roland fantom G than the Other workstation brands. But in fairness to the other brands, What the fantom can do to make music, other brand can do as well. The Only thing What I find it amazing with Roland is when you play this on live "STAGE" It really does matter to me when you change patches with out having a clipped or glitches! I think same as this applies to motif XS but not KORG. If you where to choose those 3, choose roland or Motif. But it depends which you feel you like most... THe most important is if you feel comfortable with your workstation and how you manage to work with it. ABout the sound quality both have their advantages and disadvantages. You can find advanatge sounds or patches in roland which you cant find it motif, You can find other advantage sounds in motif in which there are disadvantages in roland. Its all up to the user... YOur choice...

[thextreme1]

>Yamaha should have included "Brail" for outdoor use! <

Hahahaha. This made me spit out my drink. Thank you for a great laugh!